ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Battle scooters
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-18-2012, 08:41 AM   #16
Jonniedee
Studly Adventurer
 
Jonniedee's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Plainwell Michigan
Oddometer: 513
Ethanol destroyed my Ducati's gas tank
Jonniedee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 09:16 AM   #17
oldxr
Beastly Adventurer
 
oldxr's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: central komifornia
Oddometer: 1,072
I replaced the float needle and seat in my friends yamaha yz426 carburator.The float bowl was flooding.He rode the bike 1 time and parked for 4 months.Then he pulls the bike out and uses it again and its flooding again.I get the usual bitch cell call and tell him to bring the bike back to my house.After removing the carb and float bowl I find the float needle stuck .I removed the float needle and found that the crap ethanol gas had attacked the new float needle .Some corrosion had formed on it making it stick in the seat.The needle and seat were a real yamaha oem parts.I hate this crap gas.In california its %10 on all gas.Time to use fuel stabilizer-or av gas

oldxr screwed with this post 04-18-2012 at 09:19 AM Reason: spelling
oldxr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 09:49 AM   #18
alicethomas
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Palatinate, Germany
Oddometer: 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
That's nearly what I said. Of course E85 is 85% Ethanol und 15% fossil fuel, E85 has slightly more energy/litre than E100.

We know Ethanol fuel since 19th century. We have no oil-wells, we used to make our fuel from potatoes and/or coal, until fossil fuel became cheap as water. Ethanol fuel is a little bit different from fossil fuel, but manageable.

Government has decided to become independent from fossil fuel and oil wars. If we don't use enough Ethanol fuel in comparison to fossil fuel, we (the common people) will be fined with about 400 million € / year.
alicethomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 09:56 AM   #19
CaseyJones
Ridin' that train
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Wisconsin
Oddometer: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicethomas View Post
That's nearly what I said. Of course E85 is 85% Ethanol und 15% fossil fuel, E85 has slightly more energy/litre than E100.

We know Ethanol fuel since 19th century. We have no oil-wells, we used to make our fuel from potatoes and/or coal, until fossil fuel became cheap as water. Ethanol fuel is a little bit different from fossil fuel, but manageable.

Government has decided to become independent from fossil fuel and oil wars.
If we don't use enough Ethanol fuel in comparison to fossil fuel, we (the common people) will be fined with about 400 million / year.
Sure. How does using petrol to grow crops to generate ethanol, which then rots your vehicles from inside the fuel system...using as much petrol to harvest and process those crops as would otherwise just be burned on the open market...how does THAT reduce oil usage?

Ethanol is a political artificially-constructed answer to a non-existent problem. And in using it we replace imaginary problems with real ones.
__________________
2007 Burgman 650 Executive...my last hurrah
2011 Xingyue XY300t-4 - Rust in pieces, all over my garage floor. Make me an offer!
2005 Honda BigRuckus...The Last Word; the Armageddon AdventureRide.
CaseyJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 10:26 AM   #20
alicethomas
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Palatinate, Germany
Oddometer: 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
Ethanol is a political artificially-constructed answer to a non-existent problem. And in using it we replace imaginary problems with real ones.
I'm not in the political or scientific position to judge about that. Rising Ethanol-% (or in general use of regenerative energy) is the law, that's I need to know.
But imho:
Oil war 1 (Iraq) was quite expensive. Material and immaterial.
Oil war n+1 (Iran) will be much more expensive!
alicethomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 10:31 AM   #21
CaseyJones
Ridin' that train
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Wisconsin
Oddometer: 753
Ethanol does nothing to reduce oil use.

We use X gallons of oil or petrol, to havest crops to distill ethanol that replaces X gallons of oil or oil products.

Zero sum, as far as oil goes.

But in the process, we are diverting huge amounts of foodstuffs or potential food-raising cropland, to make ethanol.

You don't need an engineering degree to grasp this.
__________________
2007 Burgman 650 Executive...my last hurrah
2011 Xingyue XY300t-4 - Rust in pieces, all over my garage floor. Make me an offer!
2005 Honda BigRuckus...The Last Word; the Armageddon AdventureRide.
CaseyJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 02:06 PM   #22
knucklehead90
Gnarly Adventurer
 
knucklehead90's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: High Desert - Ephrata Washington
Oddometer: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by High Country Herb View Post
Alcohol fuels use more volume to run, so you will see an improvement in mileage.

I'm on a pit crew for a vehicle running methanol through a fuel injected V-8, and we use about 3 gallons per run. When we ran gasoline, we used about 2 gallons. Granted, this is an 800 horspower motor, but you get the idea.

You would think the lean condiditon caused by the alcohol fuel would cause it to run hotter, but the alcohol actually cools the motor when it isn't actually burning. Red hot exhaust headers, ice cold intake manifold.
Better redo your math calculations. If you were using 2 gallons of gasoline per run and now use 3 gallons per run on ethanol your mileage just dropped by 1/3. This is born out by the fact that ethanol has ~34% less energy per gallon than pure gasoline. There is no way the average car motorcycle or scooter can get better fuel mileage from ethanol than on pure gasoline - unless you test the ethanol with a tailwind on a downhill run - and burn the pure gasoline on the way back - uphill with a headwind.

Ethanol is purely a political football - the farmers win since they are raking in cash by the bucket when they sell their corn to the feedlots and refineries (highest bidders) and getting subsidies from us the taxpayers - and handing cash over to politicians who will keep the subsidies flowing because its healthy for their reelection campaigns. That is the 'new' cash flow in this country - and its funded by the stupidity of the American tax payers. Ethanol has nothing to do with 'getting off foreign oil' and everything to do with raping the tax payers for yet another subsidy. "Getting us off foreign oil" is about tantamount to the old saw "its for the children". Whenever you see that line you know its a scam.

I live in the Columbia Basin in Washington State. I know many farmers - and they are either raising corn - or wish they were. Contrary to popular belief that farmers have it hard - BS - they are doing great.
__________________
2008 650 Burgman Executive 'Darksided'
2007 Yamaha Majesty
Cages:
1971 Karmann Ghia
2013 VW Jetta TDi Premium
knucklehead90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 03:44 PM   #23
elite1 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
elite1's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: Pittsburgh-The Steel City
Oddometer: 172
All I can say is, "drill, baby, drill!"
__________________
10 Triumph Thruxton - ton up bitch ; 86 Elite 150 Deluxe - pimpin' 80's icon ; 78 Puch Newport - still in the family. Still can't outrun Fido. ; 07 Elite 80 - bulletproof but boring - sold ; 82 Honda Ft500 Ascot - The lil' donkey's bed - gone but not forgotten.
elite1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 06:00 PM   #24
seraph
asshole on a scooter
 
seraph's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Oddometer: 291
Aren't American corn/ethanol subsidies being ended? It won't change the requirements some states have for E10 or whatever but it's a start.

Also, unless you have an older vehicle - the requirement came sometime in the '00s, I can't recall the year, maybe '06? - ethanol really isn't a problem for it. It was part of DOT requirements that they be able to handle partial ethanol fuels.

As for the gas mileage concern: it's overblown. E100 is significantly worse than pure gas, but E10 or E15 ain't that bad. Using the numbers from the previous page:
E0 (pure gas): 114,000 BTUs
E100 (pure ethanol): 76,100 BTUs

So if you do the math --
E10 [(0.90*114,000)+(0.10*76,100)] = 110,210 BTUs or 96.68% a full gallon of gas
E15 [(0.85*114,000)+(0.15*76,100)] = 108315 BTUs or 95.01% a full gallon of gas
Pennies!!

Do I like ethanol? No. Not at all. It's not sustainable, it's unduly subsidised and/or required by misguided laws, it's not as energy dense, etc. etc. I'd much prefer pure gas.

But unless you have an older vehicle - and even then, I know many people with high-mileage vehicles from well before the ethanol rule that survive it quite handily - it's not a problem. It's never been a problem on my 2-stroke Stella, or my car, or my previous scooters.
seraph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 06:57 PM   #25
CaseyJones
Ridin' that train
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Wisconsin
Oddometer: 753
It's a BIG problem with my BMW cycle - it addles the feedback loop fuel-injection system; my mileage drops by about 8 mpg.

It's somewhat less apparent in my small Toyota automobile - but I lose about four mpg when I have to run gasohol. And I'm cognizant of what ethanol does to fuel injection parts and other metals - long ago, I bought rotgut gas, with alcohol in it, at an off-brand station. And kept doing so even after I got my first fuel-injected car.

I wound up with about $1800 in repairs to the system.
__________________
2007 Burgman 650 Executive...my last hurrah
2011 Xingyue XY300t-4 - Rust in pieces, all over my garage floor. Make me an offer!
2005 Honda BigRuckus...The Last Word; the Armageddon AdventureRide.
CaseyJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 08:32 PM   #26
caponerd
Kickstart Enthusiast
 
caponerd's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Halfway between Munich and Redditch.
Oddometer: 1,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
It's a BIG problem with my BMW cycle - it addles the feedback loop fuel-injection system; my mileage drops by about 8 mpg.

It's somewhat less apparent in my small Toyota automobile - but I lose about four mpg when I have to run gasohol. And I'm cognizant of what ethanol does to fuel injection parts and other metals - long ago, I bought rotgut gas, with alcohol in it, at an off-brand station. And kept doing so even after I got my first fuel-injected car.

I wound up with about $1800 in repairs to the system.
My fuel injected 1994 Toyota truck has been running E10 for over 6 years (based on when it was officially required in all gas for vehicles in Oregon; Southern Oregon, where I had to visit a couple of days a week for my job has been requiring it since the mid-90's).
So far, I've had zero fuel system problems with over 100,000 miles using gasohol exclusively out of the total 230,000 miles on that truck..
If you had $1800 in repairs to the fuel system in your car, it's more likely that something else caused the problem.

I go out of my way to buy real gas at a local marina to put in my vintage bikes and my 1949 Dodge whenever I can, but I don't worry about it in any of my modern stuff, among which I include my 1982 BMW R100 (like my Toyota truck; zero problems so far due to alchohol in fuel)

The only problem I've ever seen due to ethanol was when I bought a tank full of it for my 1976 BMW 2002 car shortly after Southern Oregon gas stations began using it. I experienced a clogged fuel filter after running it for about 100 miles, due to the detergent action of the ethanol flushing a bunch of deposits out of my fuel system, which ended up in the filter.
Put in a new fuel filter, problem solved.

I won't address the idea that it takes more fuel to make ethanol than you get out of it (but I suspect that these claims are propaganda from the petrolium industry), and there are certain issues (such as the plastic Ducati fuel tanks) resulting from ethanol in some vehicles, but this whole idea that it causes nothing but problems is BS. It's a tempest in a teapot, and like it or not, we're stuck with the stuff, so get over it.
caponerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2012, 08:51 PM   #27
CaseyJones
Ridin' that train
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Wisconsin
Oddometer: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by caponerd View Post
My fuel injected 1994 Toyota truck has been running E10 for over 6 years (based on when it was officially required in all gas for vehicles in Oregon; Southern Oregon, where I had to visit a couple of days a week for my job has been requiring it since the mid-90's).
So far, I've had zero fuel system problems with over 100,000 miles using gasohol exclusively out of the total 230,000 miles on that truck..
If you had $1800 in repairs to the fuel system in your car, it's more likely that something else caused the problem.

I go out of my way to buy real gas at a local marina to put in my vintage bikes and my 1949 Dodge whenever I can, but I don't worry about it in any of my modern stuff, among which I include my 1982 BMW R100 (like my Toyota truck; zero problems so far due to alchohol in fuel)

The only problem I've ever seen due to ethanol was when I bought a tank full of it for my 1976 BMW 2002 car shortly after Southern Oregon gas stations began using it. I experienced a clogged fuel filter after running it for about 100 miles, due to the detergent action of the ethanol flushing a bunch of deposits out of my fuel system, which ended up in the filter.
Put in a new fuel filter, problem solved.

I won't address the idea that it takes more fuel to make ethanol than you get out of it (but I suspect that these claims are propaganda from the petrolium industry), and there are certain issues (such as the plastic Ducati fuel tanks) resulting from ethanol in some vehicles, but this whole idea that it causes nothing but problems is BS. It's a tempest in a teapot, and like it or not, we're stuck with the stuff, so get over it.
I'm not a mechanical engineer or a mechanic. I understand the theory; but how well each product does with rotgut gasohol varies.

The car that didn't like ethanol gas, was a 1989 Dodge minivan with the Mitsubushi V6 engine and fuel injection. Cost a nice pile to make it right again; and after that I quit running no-brand gas.

No doubt cars today are better able to handle it. And cars made this year have the advantage of having been modified to use ethanol - since it's pretty much across the board, except for pockets with high-priced straight gas.

Some cars were ready for E85 all along. Many Chryslers were...apparently they got burned early;and Latin American nations have been running rotgut for decades.

But the BMW...is not for the common man and not for a Third World market. Those arrogant Krauts..."Ve believe alcohol is for DRINKING - after the workday!!" They KNOW it shouldn't be added; so they're not going to mod their products to make it run on that substandard fuel.

I know what I know. It doesn't perform well with ethanol. It loses power and economy; and probably is susceptable to corrosion on close-clearance FI parts.

On the Toyota...probably it's more resistant. The Japanese engineers love a challenge; and have answered most of them well. Which still, doesn't make ethanol a clever idea.
__________________
2007 Burgman 650 Executive...my last hurrah
2011 Xingyue XY300t-4 - Rust in pieces, all over my garage floor. Make me an offer!
2005 Honda BigRuckus...The Last Word; the Armageddon AdventureRide.
CaseyJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2012, 12:19 AM   #28
alicethomas
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Palatinate, Germany
Oddometer: 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
But the BMW...is not for the common man and not for a Third World market. Those arrogant Krauts..."Ve believe alcohol is for DRINKING - after the workday!!" They KNOW it shouldn't be added; so they're not going to mod their products to make it run on that substandard fuel.
BMW motorcycle says all their motorcycles ever build may use E10. And as I told you, we ("the arrogant Krauts") know Ethanol fuel since 19th century.
Prove that E10 caused the problem and sue them - if you can.
BTW: Ethanol is a well known race fuel. High octane, good inner colling, less residua. The famous Silberpfeils in the 193x area used fuel with 10% Ethanol too.
alicethomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2012, 03:41 AM   #29
CaseyJones
Ridin' that train
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Wisconsin
Oddometer: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicethomas View Post
BMW motorcycle says all their motorcycles ever build may use E10. And as I told you, we ("the arrogant Krauts") know Ethanol fuel since 19th century.
Prove that E10 caused the problem and sue them - if you can.
BTW: Ethanol is a well known race fuel. High octane, good inner colling, less residua. The famous Silberpfeils in the 193x area used fuel with 10% Ethanol too.
I have not seen their endorsement of ethanol fuels in my papers.

Be that as it may...when the government mandates ethanol use and pressures manufacturers to support it...a rote endorsement in the manual is not an engineering feature.

They know of ethanol since the dawn of the internal-combustion engine. That doesn't mean they believe it's superior or that their products are engineered for it.

The incompatibility of ethanol and some vehicles isn't necessarily ignorance - simply a rejection of the fuel as suitable and a choice made before government mandates.

Finally...you can spout all the "Talking Points" about that inferior fuel all you want. Engineering laws and reality, are not like political expediencies and propagaganda - engineering laws are immutable. Racing venues choose ethanol for other reasons; and race crews are unconcerned with long-term durability of their engines or systems.
__________________
2007 Burgman 650 Executive...my last hurrah
2011 Xingyue XY300t-4 - Rust in pieces, all over my garage floor. Make me an offer!
2005 Honda BigRuckus...The Last Word; the Armageddon AdventureRide.
CaseyJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2012, 06:28 AM   #30
hexnut
just cruising
 
hexnut's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: middle Tennessee
Oddometer: 1,321
I don't much care for it, I try not to use it in my scooter, but...we have had E10 around here for over 20 years. I have never had a problem with it in any vehicle I have owned, and I have owned a bunch. My 17 year old lawn tractor has always had e10 in it. It sets all winter and always starts up in the spring. Last year I took the carb off to see how it was doing and it was clean as a pin. No corrosion what so ever.

Problems happen and its easy to blame the gas. Although I have got bad gas a few times but it had nothing to do with e10. Actually the last tank of bad gas I got was ethanol free gas. That was last month.
__________________
2014 Harley Sportster 883 Superlow

hexnuts...a curse put on your balls by a mean gypsy
3/5 Cav, C Troop, BlackKnights, Vietnam 1969

hexnut screwed with this post 04-19-2012 at 07:38 AM
hexnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 03:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014