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Old 04-26-2012, 08:18 AM   #16
CRW
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Just a thought here guys.
You could cut thin plastic from those flimsy roll up cutting boards to make a protective barrier(for the in side of the bag) that a cactus most likely wouldn't puncture. Imagine the amount of condoms and tire lube you could carry. You could almost make it like a tool roll(forming board) for certain tools to create even more protection.
I have always been intrigued by these bags but aint got no crash bars.
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:23 AM   #17
Namecheck
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Damnski!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjracer View Post
I have all my WARN WINCH recovery gear in there. Easy for anyone on the trip to get to and always on the bike.

The Small "A990" bag on the crash bars are what we are talking about for new comers.



Dude, that bike is friggin bad-ASS!
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:02 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Namecheck View Post
Dude, that bike is friggin bad-ASS!
and it has Front Wheel Drive too.
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:24 AM   #19
cjracer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
CJ,

Have you considered what will you do if/when* your AWD "Troop Transport" falls downhill onto the side the recovery gear needed to right the bike is located?

*never underestimate the resourcefulness of Murphy.

I recently read the thread of the guy with the rope, carabiners and pulleys to make a block and tackle and he mentioned always packing the recovery gear in the top box, else the bike will inevitably end up on top of the gear you need to extract it.
Sure I have, but to this day, none of my crashes or "stucks" have limited me from getting the bike back on 2 wheels. I travel solo a lot and if I pack to the point I can't pick the bike up. It's too much and it's deemed not needed. I can pick it up packed, and if I couldn't after a trip/crash off trail I would most likely have more issues than getting the bike out.

If I can't get it upright- unload it more.

I raced a Hair Scramble a few years back. A 950 in the woods amongst 250 and 300s.

I crashed on a down hill/ off camber section. Bike flipped tires up hill to the sky..... Bikes passing me looking like a Semi had rolled over.

Scratches be damned, I had to get moving again. I spun the bike around 180, tires down hill. Bike was at about a 45 degree angle against the hill. I picked it up from there.

The contents in these bags might be sacrificed in that situation, I agree. But so far my Crash testing with my current items in the bags as they are now has shown no damage to them. This was a crash test down a rock stair case in Moab. I don't recommend repeating it to verify.

Every riding area has it's packing issues and concerns. We don't have catus in Wisconsin. We have trees, roots, mud, and sand. I enjoy traveling to new areas, learning new skills and how my setup back home works in other areas.

The AWD is awesome and has made my own personal use the winch go down greatly in the last few seasons, but just as I do in my 4wd Trucks.

1wd first,
2wd when that's not enough....

WARN Winch when nothing else will do.


Here is my personal take on the HUMAN powered ropes and "biner" systems VS Winch system. Either one is better than nothing!

Pluses:
-They are or can be very light weight.
-cost less.
-can be easier to use in the proper situation.

Minus:
-Solo use might be iffy getting a bike up a climb.
(you need to hold the bike on it's wheels to roll the easiest, then pull on rope system. Better left to 2 or 3 rider group.
- (Space) Rope depending on how much is needed can take up as much room as my current winch setup.

Winch system-

Pluses:
-You could get heavier items out of a bad situation will less effort SOLO.
(What if you are too tired to Pull and can't, We've found at the end of the day. Even if it takes longer the get the WINCH out and rigged, it was still safer than getting stuck or injure ourselves pushing. Slow and Steady.)
-Once wired to the bike, I use this as a jump start point for other bikes.
-You gets lot of power in a 10lb package.

Minus:
-Cost
(It's hard to swallow a $600 price tag, but I find if you are riding in an area that requires bike extraction in any manner, it pays for its self the first use.)

If you ride with groups regularly. Everyone pitch in and have every Bike wired with a POWER lead. For larger groups this might be about $60 per bike rider. Get the "Controls on Winch" version and now anyone can use it at anytime from bike to bike.

-The perceived bulk and weight.
- NO power, NO pull. Good electrical system and wiring is a must.

I am always open to new ideas and trail product uses.

For my use and application in SOLO travel, the WARN Winch setup works better for me.

PLEASE, if you run into me on the trail and we have time. I'd like to see a Human power rope system layout compared to the Winch Layout system.

If anything needs to be covered more, I'll do my best to explain how I use my setups. I'm no pro, but being comfortable traveling and exploring on your bike takes time to get "your" setup dialed.


Here is a ride report so you can see the kind of trails we travel on in Wisconsin.

Safe travels,
cj
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Old 04-26-2012, 11:27 AM   #20
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Really enjoyed the detailed write-up!

The idea of a 950 in a Hare Scramble is intriguing. It has been fun surprising folks with just what I can get away with when riding with them on their 250's and 400's.

It's always more fun than riding with most of the GS/Strom crowd but not as many opportunities to take a break as I'm seldom waiting as long for the smaller bikes to slinky up.

For now I tend to carry everything in the tank bag and top box for daily riding. I have strapped some MSR bags to the crash bars for week-long road trips, mostly to clear waterproof space in the Caribou top and side boxes for clothes and things that wouldn't fare well in a torrential downpour.
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Old 04-26-2012, 11:50 AM   #21
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$130? Jeez, that seems like a lot. I could probably make them for about half of that using the same materials and include a thin poly cactus protection barrier. I'm just saying I may do it in the near future, I'm not fishing for orders. I'll see what I can do about making a prototype pair after I get my crash bars.

Here is a picture of some of my other bags I've made.





More pics are in my signature link.
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Old 04-26-2012, 12:31 PM   #22
Alleycatdad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjracer View Post
Sure I have, but to this day, none of my crashes or "stucks" have limited me from getting the bike back on 2 wheels. I travel solo a lot and if I pack to the point I can't pick the bike up. It's too much and it's deemed not needed. I can pick it up packed, and if I couldn't after a trip/crash off trail I would most likely have more issues than getting the bike out.

If I can't get it upright- unload it more.

I raced a Hair Scramble a few years back. A 950 in the woods amongst 250 and 300s.

I crashed on a down hill/ off camber section. Bike flipped tires up hill to the sky..... Bikes passing me looking like a Semi had rolled over.

Scratches be damned, I had to get moving again. I spun the bike around 180, tires down hill. Bike was at about a 45 degree angle against the hill. I picked it up from there.

The contents in these bags might be sacrificed in that situation, I agree. But so far my Crash testing with my current items in the bags as they are now has shown no damage to them. This was a crash test down a rock stair case in Moab. I don't recommend repeating it to verify.

Every riding area has it's packing issues and concerns. We don't have catus in Wisconsin. We have trees, roots, mud, and sand. I enjoy traveling to new areas, learning new skills and how my setup back home works in other areas.

The AWD is awesome and has made my own personal use the winch go down greatly in the last few seasons, but just as I do in my 4wd Trucks.

1wd first,
2wd when that's not enough....

WARN Winch when nothing else will do.


Here is my personal take on the HUMAN powered ropes and "biner" systems VS Winch system. Either one is better than nothing!

Pluses:
-They are or can be very light weight.
-cost less.
-can be easier to use in the proper situation.

Minus:
-Solo use might be iffy getting a bike up a climb.
(you need to hold the bike on it's wheels to roll the easiest, then pull on rope system. Better left to 2 or 3 rider group.
- (Space) Rope depending on how much is needed can take up as much room as my current winch setup.

Winch system-

Pluses:
-You could get heavier items out of a bad situation will less effort SOLO.
(What if you are too tired to Pull and can't, We've found at the end of the day. Even if it takes longer the get the WINCH out and rigged, it was still safer than getting stuck or injure ourselves pushing. Slow and Steady.)
-Once wired to the bike, I use this as a jump start point for other bikes.
-You gets lot of power in a 10lb package.

Minus:
-Cost
(It's hard to swallow a $600 price tag, but I find if you are riding in an area that requires bike extraction in any manner, it pays for its self the first use.)

If you ride with groups regularly. Everyone pitch in and have every Bike wired with a POWER lead. For larger groups this might be about $60 per bike rider. Get the "Controls on Winch" version and now anyone can use it at anytime from bike to bike.

-The perceived bulk and weight.
- NO power, NO pull. Good electrical system and wiring is a must.

I am always open to new ideas and trail product uses.

For my use and application in SOLO travel, the WARN Winch setup works better for me.

PLEASE, if you run into me on the trail and we have time. I'd like to see a Human power rope system layout compared to the Winch Layout system.

If anything needs to be covered more, I'll do my best to explain how I use my setups. I'm no pro, but being comfortable traveling and exploring on your bike takes time to get "your" setup dialed.


Here is a ride report so you can see the kind of trails we travel on in Wisconsin.

Safe travels,
cj
Hey CJ-

As the current "rope and pulley" guy over in the other thread, I just want to note that I agree with everything you've said here--except, maybe, the bit about having never been in a situation where I can't pick up the bike. I'm a used-to-be-scrawny, now chubby and still not real strong "little guy", and I have no illusions about my inability to pick up the big girl. That said, everything else you said is true in my experience, and I have quite a lot of experience....

I did recently come into one of the warn winches, but I'm not sure that I'm going to quit carrying the recovery setup that I already have, maybe in addition to the winch. An extra 160 or so feet of rope can't really be a BAD thing, right? And pulleys, well, they're awful handy if you're alone and need to change the direction of a pull......and prusiks are super handy to lock out any pulling system for a reset. Unlike the trucks, our needs are lightweight enough (did I just say that?) that we have options that don't exist in larger vehicle recoveries.

Strategies that you mention about pulling the bike around on hills, etc are completely valid--the first step in ANY recovery is a deep breath and a careful and thoughtful evaluation of the situation as it really is, absent the "Oh shit" emotional load that happens when you realize that the bike's off an edge or stuffed into a deadfall, or....whatever.
These are the things I evaluate before I even begin to consider whether or not I can lift the bike up or get it out:

1) Stability: If the bike safe where it is? Maybe more important, am I safe near it? This is another place where it may be handy to have that length of extra rope. If you're upset that the bikes in a bad spot, you're gonna be REALLY pissed with it on your chest...

2) Other risks: What's near the bike? Did I dislodge something that's gonna fall on me? I've actually seen a street rider get smacked by a boulder that the bike hit on the way over the edge while he tried to get to the bike after the fall, and it was not pretty. Take just a minute and look.

Once I'm satisfied that the crash/fall/moment is over, THEN I can try to figure out what to do about it. There is almost always a way to improve a bike's position to your advantage, although as you note, it may result in a few more scratches or additional minor damage to the bike. Wrestling the thing down to the next switchback instead of trying to climb back up to my departure point has worked pretty well for me with the WR250F, not sure I wanna try it with the 990.

Any time you can get the wheels downhill from the bike, it's a good thing. I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule, but in general, they're easier to pick up with the bars higher than the wheels. I've done this to the little bike too many times to remember, and that's why I'm concerned about my ability to do it with the big bike without some MA (mechanical advantage).

I can hear the chorus of, "just get a smaller bike, then", and y'all can bite me. I like my big girl. I once met a lady who was 87 years old, MAYBE 5 feet tall, and MAYBE 100 lbs soaking wet at a bike shop in San Luis Obispo. She was getting her Gold Wing serviced. She basically lived on that bike, and I was amazed. As she was gearing up to leave, I asked her if she ever dropped it--remember, even with the cutdown seat she had less purchase with her feet on the ground than I do now on the 990-and she said it happened all the time. Goggle-eyed, I asked her what in the hell she did THEN?!?!

I will never forget her response. She walked over to the bike, pushed it off the sidestand and over the high side, and said, "Watch..."

She pulled a bottle jack out of the top case (told you I never forget her...) and walked to the lowside of the downed bike. Now GWs don't really fall all that far, but remember, 87, less than 100 lbs, 5 feet tall. Stuck that jack under the tab on the crashbar I hadn't seen, and started pumping. Got it up just about to the balance point, the jack all topped out, reached out with two fingers and pushed that thing back onto the sidestand. Grinned, put the jack away, and, literally, rode off into the sunset.

That was the first true adventure rider I ever met.

So, if you say I need a smaller bike, you're half right. Smaller bike.....or a strategy for dealing with my "too-big" bike.

I choose having a strategy.

Your points about the pulley/rope solution are all valid, but they do not make it a poor choice. Yes, I may have to drag the bike up the embankment on it's side, but the last two times Ive been in a situation which required help getting a bike back up to a road, it would havebeen impossible to do it with the bike upright (in fact, one of those times we did have a winch and three guys trying to keep the bike on it's wheels, and we nearly had a hgih angle rescue for one of the guys--it was just too steep and too loose to pull it off). My perspective is it's better to have a few more scratches and maybe a tougher pull than walk home. Scratches make good stories, anyhow. Yes, you have to pay much more attention to potential bike hang-ups, etc, than you would with an upright bike. One advantage of lotsa rope is that you can get mroe reach and still maintain some MA than you can with some of the block and tackle solutions running around this place--8 feet is not adequate reach.

So-the winch. I have one, haven't wired it up yet. Controls-on-winch model, not on the handlebar. 40 feet of rope. Can't imagine having all this rope for the pulley system and not bringing it along--160 feet of extra reach could encompass a lot of new anchor points! And..if you're gonna bring the rope, why not the pulleys, etc---they all fit in the bag already...

...and, frankly, I haven't figured out how I want to carry the thing, or even if I DO want to carry it all the time anyway. I commute to work and ride dirt home often, but I sure don't want it out in the open for the workday. I will say that if you've seen old school warn winches on trucks or worked with those, you have to see one of the xt17s to appreciate just how small and light they are. Maybe I'll come up with a quick release system inside a topcase.....still deciding. Waiting for my CJ rack to arrive to mount the new topcase anyway....

This is a good discussion, but we sure highjacked the thread!

Steve
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:47 PM   #23
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Hi Steve.

Awesome info from someone that knows what they are talking about. Greatly appreciated.

I didn't want my post to come off as a SLAM to the rope and pulley setups, I don't want it taken that way at all.

Each system is great. I do carry an extra 50 ft of winch rope for winch hookup and snatch blocks and "biners", So I guess I'm kind of 1/2 rope with Winch.

Let's just say I don't want my bike sitting the woods by itself very long.

This weekend I'm putting on a talk "How I pack my 950 ADV for a 5 day DS trip" , No camping this time.

I'll try and get pics of what I bring to complement the Winch setup and everything else.

Maybe I'll start a new thread on that, might be of interests and good reference for future use anyways.

That might be a great place to cut and paste these two hijack posts to.
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:09 PM   #24
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Once again, CJ, I completely agree. Feel free to slide 'em over; I'm hoping to get a few minutes to toss teh wr over somewhere fun, rig it up, and take pix of the result soon as well...

Never took anything you wrote as a slam. Agree with you the whole way, as I stated before.

Hope to see you on the trail someday--maybe I'll tell you about walking 20+miles outta the Panamints, or free-diving in the back of an Isuzu Trooper for a winch control....

Steve
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