ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-18-2012, 05:51 AM   #151
dredman
Dirt Disciple
 
dredman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: Hoover Al
Oddometer: 109
From our latest event on Saturday - look closely at all the smiles :)



dredman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2012, 06:27 PM   #152
Harvey Krumpet
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Shaky Isles
Oddometer: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by liquid_ice View Post
@nuggets, don't you mean that you have cones in your schoolyard ;)

@Harvey Krumpet, first we are going to watch the "ride like a pro" DVD.
After it we go to the location where also my bicycle will be and I let them try the "ride like a pro"-techniques on my cheap bicycle. I tried it yesterday and I could manage a figure 8 in just 1 parking thingy (and that's in europe, you americands have bigger cars :P ).
After it the simple U-turn and stuff building up to the GP8 and the 100ft gymkhana course.

I could not figure out smaller baby steps without using minibikes
;)
Ha! We started slow & tight but it may not be the best way. As Vulfy recommended to me we have set up a 100ft course, the simple one at the beginning of the thread. On Sunday we took the DT 230 out for a fang. Lots of things come into play, gear box, hard braking front & rear, correct lines etc. Admittedly I was cheating using a light trail bike but managed to scrape my boots a few times & do the course at an average of 43 seconds. Then I realised we were missing a turn. Ach!
It was brilliant using the rear brake to drop the bike into turns while keeping the throttle on & great practice for hard braking at the finish box. Best day yet!!!!
I took the TDM out yesterday & had a go in the rain, I am happy to admit I was crapping it. I started with some braking practice, the rear Shinko 705 locked very easily but the Pirelli A/T front was really solid. I managed to do the same course, albeit a little slower with no problems, the rear twitched a couple of times but otherwise it was a real eye opener how well the 220kg bike & dual purpose tires performed. The previous days practice helped immensely, the bikes feel very balanced & I'm getting far fewer EEK! moments.

Love the vid dredman, nice to see Joe Blo having ago rather than Ninja over achievers.

Harvey Krumpet screwed with this post 06-18-2012 at 06:42 PM
Harvey Krumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2012, 09:19 PM   #153
Vulfy OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Vulfy's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: NYC
Oddometer: 547
A quick note on the rear locking up.

I don't know if you are slipping your clutch when you ride. If you are, then try riding the course without touching the clutch at all. To see how slow you can run your bike right on the edge of stalling, run her in a straight line, keep the throttle barely open, just so she runs smooth, and apply a good doze of rear brake. As she starts to surge, that's your edge, right before stalling, ease up on brakes a bit and she should smooth out. If you can't keep her running slow enough without surging, then slip the clutch a bit to smooth it out.

What this has to do with rear locking up? Well, when you are squeezing the clutch you are not putting all of the power to the rear wheel, so with heavy braking it locks up. However if you have power going to the rear wheel at all times, it is much harder to lock it up. The rear tire might even hop a bit, but will not easily lock up.

Also, by not touching the clutch, you are:
A: have one control less, to worry about.
B: when braking into the turn, you are using engine braking IN ADDITION to front and rear.

It took me a bit of time to overcome the fear and the overall uneasiness over the though that the bike will stall out in the middle of a turn, if I don't slip the clutch. But at this point, I'm riding Triumph Speed Triple, which is a nearly a liter bike, all stock, and I haven't managed to stall the engine once. Its not even a concern to me anymore.
Vulfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2012, 09:22 PM   #154
Vulfy OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Vulfy's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: NYC
Oddometer: 547
This is a post by Motogymkhanaman over at amgrass.com forums.
He is explaining the clutchless riding very well.



"Where and when to use the clutch often leads to many interesting discussions so to help everybody get a handle on it, here is the Moto Gymkhana riders guide to the clutch.

First of all it should be noted that in comparison to brake pads clutches are very expensive to repair or replace when they wear out and overuse of the clutch can do seriously nasty things to the engine oil as it slips.

Secondly a bike is much more stable with the throttle open and the engine driving the rear wheel than it is with no drive to the rear wheel.

Thirdly the throttle and the rear brake are precision analogue controls which can be used in combination to set an exact amount of power delivery to the rear wheel.

Depending on the type of bike being ridden there are times when it is neccessary to very slightly slip the clutch, but in most circumstances the clutch is used only at the beginning and end of a course attack. Its use is often required in the big engined Supermoto machines to smooth out the power pulses and to stop them overwhelming the last bit of grip from the rear tyre and it is also used on the very big and powerful supersports machines when it is neccessary to very quickly reduce the amount of drive reaching the rear wheel.

For most bikes the clutch can simply be forgotten during a course attack as it adds another variable to manage when you have probably got your hands (and feet) full with operating just the throttle and the brake.

The excessive use of the clutch at low(ish) speeds has been promoted by the training industry as it reduces the problems associated with very large capacity V twins and singles, particularly at the point when the engine is just about to stall, but it does have the undesirable side-effect of disguising poor throttle control.

To find out whether or not your bike actually needs the clutch to be operated during a course attack, simply ride along in first gear with the throttle slightly open and apply greater and greater amounts of rear brake until the bike starts to jerk and the transmission starts to lash as it uisually does just prior to the stall. Ease the rear brake off very slightly, sufficient to stop the jerking and add a little more throttle and apply the rear brake again. Try various combinations of open throttle and rear brake until you find the combination at which you can ride the slowest without any jerking from the engine. Most bikes will be quite happy and smooth at around 4 mph which is walking pace.

This speed will be about right for performing such wonders as rotation turns etc, but if your bike can't get that slow without jerking, then modest use of the clutch is quite in order.

Using rear brake against an open throttle means you will probably chew through brake pads and might occasionally boil the brake fluid, but we find that is a small price to pay for getting fast attack times. "
Vulfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2012, 09:31 PM   #155
Vulfy OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Vulfy's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: NYC
Oddometer: 547
I've posted a link to this thread in previous replies, but here is a golden nugget from the entire conversation.
This has been posted by an instructor in Chicago based school, who acquired an instructor's license in Japan. His explanation coincides with current Gymkhana enthusiasts over at UK who have direct connection with Japanese riders and coaches.

SRTTGuy:

"Clatter - the noise you heard "clatter" was from (almost) getting the braking right. I did it a few times (mostly in the morning run when I was warming up) was from not applying the rear brake at the same "tempo" of squeezing the front brake. I generally ride the course pretty quick to loosen up myself, my speeds between 20mph ~ 70 mph. When you heard the "clatter" I had applied pressure quicker to the rear than I was applying to the front. Under braking (even SRTT Style) the natural reaction of the motorcycle is for the weight (inertia) to move forward [obvisouly]. The front tire compresses under the weight transfer, the front suspension loads as well. {Think of "psi" if I had applied 3psi of front braking force... increasing to 6psi while the rear started at 5psi and maintained steady} It would not allow for the rear suspension to travel, the rear brake appled in that manner would have "locked" the rear suspension while it wanted to unload (remember the countershaft sprocket and front brake has everything moving forward) and I had applied too much rear brake (basically) locking the rear suspension... this caused the rear tire to "hop" making that chattering noise. In fact... if you were behind me when I did that... you would of seen a dotted line of a tire skiff. Again I'd like to emphasize that was incorrect... I was warming up. When it happens to you simply realize that you had applied too much pressure to the rear (faster) than you had applied to the front. When that happens... you could either release the pressure gradually until you've matched the pressure in the front or just release the rear brake completely and reapply.

Natural Steering - We (SRTT - Japanese Inst) teach that your hands compliment your legs - hips - feet. Most motorcycles are pretty darn heavy... and unfortunately most American schools teach counter-steering solely. So we're counter-steering these 600lbs (plus) motorcycles with one of our smaller muscle groups.
In SRTT we teach natural steering... first I demonstrate that your motorcycle will not crash be itself, at full lean (dragging peg feelers) your motorcycles wants to straighten up. KokomoSam... remember how the bars came back to straight after being at full lock? So with no outside influence the motorcycle wants to straight up naturally... now if I apply an outside influence (pressure on the grip) I can over come the natural desire and geometry of the motorcycle.
Then after demonstraiting proper posture we talk about steering with legs, hips, feet to releave some of the burdon from our hands. The reason we teach (Natural Steering) is easy... let's say you're riding a highway exit ramp. You're at 50mph at the beginning of the ramp exit you press on the right grip, that pressure causes your round tire to counter steer and roll in the direction of the press. Standard counter-steering.... now lets say you roll over a (crack, tar strip, debris, roadkill etc) as your tire rolls over the obstacle that "energy" compresses the tire EXAMPLE (which absorbs 2% of the energy) the remaining balance goes into the front suspension (90% absorbsion) whatever remaining balance of the energy is transferred to the steering head, handlebar, hand grip. (Quick recap) You're at 50mph and just rolled over a crack in the road... if you're counter-steering "solely" when that remaining energy comes through to the grip your body posture and pressure on the grip will have you oscillate that energy back to the suspension & tire because part of upper torso is rigid. You "feel" the crack in the road... because your connected to the front tire via the presssure in your hand.
Natural steering has the motorcycle leaning over 50mph same curve, same crack but because we're steering with our legs, hip, foot and hand (mostly legs & hip) when we pass over the crack the remaining balance of that energy (crack) passes through our upper torso, we don't reciprocate it back to the motorcycle, it passes through us.
Damn its easy to say... hard to write, sorry... we'll see if you "get it". Remember we counter-steer as well... our hands compliment the effort of the rest of our body.
Racers... Trackday Bandits... frequently I'd see (on the track) riders who counter-steered only struggle with fast sweepers or bumps in mid-corner. Why? Think of it... they are leaned over, imagine the the pressure of the tire against the asphalt, the suspension is loaded because he's setting up for the curve... think of the pressure to the grip it took to achieve that lean angle... now throw in a bump! That energy gets transferred up the tire, suspension to the steering head and grip where he's pushing back (hand) hard. That energy meets his hand and upper torso and is reciprocated (oscillation) back to the ground where the front tire looses grip and low-sides.
If the rider was supporting his body with his inner thigh, tighten abdomen muscles and relaxed upper torso the energy from the bump goes straight through his body... his body would be a dampener for that excess energy.

SRTT Braking style and posture all feed into balance and control... it's a great class, I can really get into the nuts & bolts if you like but its easier for me to show you, have you experience the difference good & bad (like KokomoSam did with the braking drill). How far can I take you? Depends on the environment and your willingness to try different styles and ask questions. Let's watch this thread blowup with debate "


----------------------


"Counter steering (additional) I just reread your questions and thoughts about asking me to ride the the swerve no-handed You can steer your motorcycle with your head alone... don't believe me try it. Find a nice straight stretch of parking lot somewhere, gear of your choice, speed of your choice, ride as relaxed on the controlls as possible. Then simply tip your ear near your shoulder, the bike will steer itself to that side. You can steer with any part of your body, try your foot (pressing down) or hang your leg off to one side. Many times riders forget to think of themselves as a 3D object, your weight (balance) is contained within those two contact patches beneath you. If you add weight or influence to one side more than another... it will respond.
Granted none of the above methods are responsive or quick but they do influence the steering of a motorcycle. Have you ever ridden a bicycle with no hands? I wasn't very good at it but I've seen kids ride around corners etc no handed. I'm sure if you could keep your RPMs up the same would be possible on a motorcycle. I'll have to get cruise control andtry it out "
Vulfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2012, 09:33 PM   #156
Vulfy OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Vulfy's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: NYC
Oddometer: 547
From my own personal experience, I got that "clutter" as well. It came from hard braking from a fast straight. Rear tire did hop a bit, but never locked up. By relaxing my brake foot a bit, and applying a bit more front brake, the braking smoothed out and clutter was gone.
Vulfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2012, 09:46 PM   #157
Harvey Krumpet
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Shaky Isles
Oddometer: 863
Cheers Vulfy.

I was locking up the rear on the TDM practising hard braking in the wet, lack of grip as the bike pitched forward. I initially had issues when I started practising my braking technique a few months ago with lock up but moved the lever down so I have to really push hard to lock it, gives me much better feel.

With the circuits we are practising I do not have the clutch or front brake covered, never thought about it, my riding style is changing on both bikes. Luckily the 2t DT has a really good bottom end & will pull on a whiff of throttle, the big twin will pull a lot on a whiff, always fun jumping off one onto the other & spearing across the car park.
The speed of riding on the bigger course seems to make it easier, turns are more decisive. Roll off throttle but not completely, look for the next turn, apply rear brake, let the bike drop & turn, accelerate. I'm carrying more momentum & holding higher revs, even through the turn. The transition between off the gas & on again is getting better, I still need more practice, though. A bit jerky if I mis-judge my line.
It's a mental challenge putting it together, feels a bit alien compared to how I used to ride day to day, thoughtlessly or habitually I guess. But, it's becoming quite addictive, must be if I'm keen to try in the rain!!
I will try & post a couple of short vids from Sundays session on the DT, don't laugh, it looks like an anal ornament on me. A world of difference compared to the last one IMHO.

PS, I've just read the last bit about steering.. I've started weighting the outside footrest in the turns for our cone practice, keeps the bike nice & stable.
As part of the advanced rider training I did an evasion exercise, swerving either right or left & then swerving back into lane as you would to avoid a car pulling out. We started with counter steering, then one handed counter steering, push pull & finally used head & footrest weighting to maximise the turns. Bloody astonishing how fast you can whip a big bike from side to side!!!!!!!

Harvey Krumpet screwed with this post 06-18-2012 at 09:54 PM Reason: Gob shite!!
Harvey Krumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 06:56 AM   #158
ohgood
Beastly Adventurer
 
ohgood's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: alabama
Oddometer: 2,168
here's my side of the story from Saturday's event:

This was a huge success (feel like I'm talking to myself, but anyway) from several angles, in our fine city of Birmingham.


Around 80 riders signed up and participated in building their skills, excluding the 20 or so that staffed and also rode in the event. The youngest rider was 7 (i think) and the oldest 71 (i believe). Several females displayed their skills on all 4 courses, including the timed course. We would have liked more, but were happy with how many tried it out.

As always, there is a bit of a SHARING CARING atmosphere at BamaRides events. As such, I rode a total of 9 bikes. They included:

KTM 990 ADV - incredible sound, power, comfort
xt350 - the perfect cheap dualsport
drz400s in 17" SM trim
drz400s (mine) in dirty DS trim
drz400s in dirty trim with pumper carb and full knobbies
hyosung 250 scooter (mine)
honda rukus 50
bmw 1150gs just helped my buddy with transmisssion / clutch replacement on this one
Triumph Tiger 1050 - the best engine and comfort on the planet !

There were 3 different main courses, with a trialing area for unsure:

trialing area = a 24' circle of tennis balls cut in half, to asess rider skill level before being allowed on the main courses.

course 1 = "GP8" a grand prix figure 8, calling for 5 complete figure 8's with a timer
course 2 = the hand of death, a multi-slalom and figure 8's along with multi-directional small tight circles to test both coordinations left and right turning
course 3 = similar to course 2, but with a more speed intensive aspect focusing on accel/decel into and out of increasing / decreasing radius turns.


As always, riders were unsure of themselves, and some flat out refused to try any courses for personal reasons. Understood. The people that did, LEARNED, excelled, and were amazed at the progress in just a few hours.

Some highlights:

A Victory Venture rider went from apprehension (he weighed around 100 lbs) to flawlessly clearing all courses on his BIG swoopy machine.

A 7 year old went from from literally scared of being on the course, to flawlessly clearing it on his dirt bike. His father coached and coaxed (along with his mom) him around the course, until he finally was SMILING and happy to do it over and over.

There were huge improvements. There were spills. There were realizations of lack of skill. Most importantly, there were people willing to volunteer their time, energy, skills, and MONEY to make it happen. Remember, this was a FREE TO RIDE event, and every penny was from the good folks at BAMARIDES. Donations were accepted for future events.

If you have EVER QUESTIONED your abilities to make the proper decision under 30 mph, you owe it to yourself to attend some similar event. Learn and teach the right way to handle your motorcycles. Learn the limits of it's handling. Scraping pegs at 90mph is not what we are advocating. This is real world skill sets you will FEEL and USE on a daily basis during your commutes, fun jaunts, and runs to the store.

Some folks will skip right to the video, and you'll miss the message. This is only a smidgen of what GYMKHANA is all about:





she's a better rider than you are... unless you can prove otherwise


rediculous after party begins


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr-mB21iO78

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdcnV7iHyws

https://picasaweb.google.com/1140160...Gymkhana061612

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAluAKUsaYU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmq_UaxuPTM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wllio77E5Hw

https://vimeo.com/44225616

If -one- person feels compelled to improve their slow speed skills and recovers from a possible crash because of improvements, I'm happy. Test yourself. Challenge yourself. Do it -today-.

:
__________________
Donkeys are flying
ohgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 12:25 PM   #159
Bill_Z
Dude! chill,...
 
Bill_Z's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Location: Crab Orchard, KY
Oddometer: 460
side note

I love the sharing and real life coaching going on here. There are sooo many places, online, where you go to get flamed. There are not very many place to get real life riding instruction like is being shared here. This is great stuff!
__________________
"The road goes ever on and on, down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the road has gone and I must follow if I can." J.R.R. Tolkien
DL650AL1
LIMNCS #51
Bill_Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 04:13 PM   #160
Harvey Krumpet
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Shaky Isles
Oddometer: 863
Your point about road skills is really pertinent ohgood. On Monday in the pishing rain a car slammed the anchors on to make a right turn on a downhill, off camber, slick corner. We were in town so it was slow speed & my following distance was good. Thing is I still had to brake & steer, felt great to do it naturally & aim for my gap with no dramas rather than have an eek moment because of the conditions.

Here are a couple of short vids as promised. Slowly but surely getting their IMHO

http://youtu.be/jahGG2Hy61c


http://youtu.be/zYm2EWVxXsg

My girlfriend nearly got winged.......
Harvey Krumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 08:21 PM   #161
dredman
Dirt Disciple
 
dredman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: Hoover Al
Oddometer: 109
To stir a discussion

a bit o practice this afternoon.........

have not ridden the cruiser in 6 months so I was a bit curious as to the limits,

shocked when I found out it was 15 feet ^-^


dredman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 08:35 PM   #162
Harvey Krumpet
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Shaky Isles
Oddometer: 863
Oh, that looks challenging. I rode a small cruiser awhile back (2fiddy cc's) and eventually found it quite well balanced, I had to find the foot controls first.... . Bloody good effort in 3 mtrs. We are doing 360's in about 4 mtrs on a good day. In the videos I posted above the road on the left of the cross roads from the start point is 5 mtrs wide, the main drag, straight ahead is 8 mtrs & the road to the right is 6 mtrs. Probably a dodgy developer trying to save on tar.
How do you find it compared to other styles of bikes?
A n00b friend owns the cruiser I was playing on so any tips I can pass on would be appreciated.
Harvey Krumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 08:39 PM   #163
Harvey Krumpet
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Shaky Isles
Oddometer: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
I love the sharing and real life coaching going on here. There are sooo many places, online, where you go to get flamed. There are not very many place to get real life riding instruction like is being shared here. This is great stuff!
I think it's a thinking mans game.... maybe. And it's pretty hard to fake it
Harvey Krumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2012, 01:53 PM   #164
hockeymeteenstokkie
Adventurer
 
hockeymeteenstokkie's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Bleiswijk
Oddometer: 19
I'm trying to register on amgrass but i get no activation mail.
How do i register on amgrass?
__________________
IBA #15502
Cure cancer, donate !
http://deelnemers.opgevenisgeenoptie...gen/actie.aspx
hockeymeteenstokkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2012, 01:58 PM   #165
dredman
Dirt Disciple
 
dredman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: Hoover Al
Oddometer: 109
Check your spam folder.
If that does not work PM me

.
dredman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 06:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014