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Old 09-16-2012, 08:43 PM   #421
Vulfy OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norcalwelder View Post
After reading through this thread I went out to a big empty parking lot next door with some soccer cones and gave it a shot. After an hour I could do a U turn on a 9ft radius which was a pretty big improvement. I'm hooked! What I'm not sure about though is should I be counter leaning at slow speeds, or should I be going fast enough that I hang off the bike in the turns?
Haha, another one gets bitten by Gymkhana! Welcome

As far as the answer to the question... ooof. That is exactly what CaptainSWJR is talking about, above.

From my personal discoveries, as well as watching tons of Youtube videos, here is what I think.

Faster turns, that are not super tight, and are done at speed, you treat it as you would in any other turn on a motorcycle. You move your body off the bike to the inside of the turn.

In the tight stuff, such as figure 8s, where you are going (relatively) slow.... well one answer that was given to me, is that its a personal preference. Again, I've seen riders hanging off, being straight with the bike, as well as counter leaning.

I tried hanging off, in slower stuff, but that wrecks my balance. Counter leaning helps, but I think it might become a bad habit, that can translate to faster turns. Staying with the bike, is my happy medium at the moment. I do like the idea of moving the weight to the inside of the turn for tighter turn, as CaptainSWJR is saying, but personally I can not do it effectively enough to gain anything from it.... yet.
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:03 PM   #422
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Here is a great example of a rider moving his mass off the bike to the inside of the turns.
However all of the turns are pretty high speed, and the few really tight turns that he does, he he puts his food down. I believe one section in the center of the spiral it is allowed to put the foot down, but he stumbles a bit before that, and then closer to the end, all in slower / tighter turns.

That is exactly what is happening to me, when I try to lean as much, while doing figure 8.




Here, the rider actually counter balances a lot of his turns, ei leaning away from the turn. Is he faster? Is he slower? I have NO idea.



This one, stays with the bike.



Again, would he be faster or slower if he was leaning in, or counter leaning? No idea.


This one is by far my most favorite video, and the first guy is doing ALL THREE depending on the turn. Faster bends, he is leaning into the turn, slower ones he is counter-leaning, and some he is staying with the bike.



GAH!!!!!

Others I'm sure will chime in with more info and their own experience.

Vulfy screwed with this post 09-16-2012 at 09:10 PM
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:05 PM   #423
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Good stuff Vulfy. Seeing your latest session I will be keeping my times to myself me thinks....

Your description of tightening your lock through the turn is what I was trying to describe in a recent post. Rather than maintaining the radius, actively trying to tighten it by adding more lock & ultimately more lean at the apex. I found it a wrestling match & a case of mind over matter with the amount of lock available on the trailies. I think it is an important technique to conquer.
We watch a lot of Gymkhana vids & notice the difference in styles of the riders. A couple which stood out last night, a guy would commit his bike to a turn, tip it on it's ear & whip his head around as he accelerated. He was looking the wrong way right through the turn!
Another rider would ratchet his head around in 360's rather than keep looking over his shoulder through the turn, he pecked his way around. The only reason I can think of for it is to avoid momentary object fixation causing the bike to run wide.Or he may have a bad neck...
I'm equally mixed up with body position too, In, out, straight up, all seem to have their place so I guess it's what works for the individual & the bike but I think flexibility in the hips & being relaxed is paramount. I've noticed my shoulders get tense which makes me stiff so I'm going to try dropping the shoulder through the corner & see if I'm more relaxed & mobile.

Hi Norcalwelder You might lose all your friends if you start this Have fun.
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:33 PM   #424
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dont laugh, i just have some fun, not in a race, becides -2 degrees, after 12 hours of work, at 4am normallyi do it ofr 30 minutes or so

http://youtu.be/JNwKG1nYlew

ive done a variety of methods in car parks, not leaning much in this one at all but got full lock on most of those, usually just tightening the radius as i turn, but ive leaned in, ive leaned out, it seems better lean angles if you lean out, counter balancing the bike in car parks at slow speeds to me, but thats just me, i dont race the stop watch.

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Old 09-17-2012, 05:42 AM   #425
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Wow! These last few posts have been really interesting as they have helped identify some of the most fundamental skills involved with Moto Gymkhana. In answer to the question as to which is the correct body position, the answers are "it depends" and "all of them"! It depends because what might suit one rider/bike combination in certain situations might not suit another and it's all of them because of the variability in courses might require a particular body position to successfully complete a particular obstacle.

One of the skills of the top Moto Gymkhana rider is to be able to place the combined centre of gravity (CCofG) of the machine and rider in exactly the correct place for optimum control. They must know exactly where the CCofG is now and also where it will be once they have made whatever control inputs they are about to make. Because it is a 'combined' centre of gravity there are almost an infinite number of body/machine lean angle combinations that will have the same effect, although not all of them will be a suitable starting point for the next manoeuvre.

As the optimum sitting position is with our backside firmly against the back of the seat, the only real way to control the CCofG is by movement of our head and upper body. When you consider that our head and crash helmet weighs about 15 pounds and it sits on the end of a 3 foot long lever (our spine) you can see that any movement of the head will have a profound effect on the position of the CCofG both longitudinally and laterally.

It certainly pays to experiment with the full range of upper body movement and how certain positions will give advantages or disadvantages in particular sections of an obstacle. This is another reason why timing attacks is so important as it is the only way to see what works and what doesn't. By using the correct body position we can ensure that the bike remains as close to upright and level as possible, which as we all know is when it is able to travel at its fastest.

If the bank angle is changing or if the steering angle is changing then the bike's track over the ground will always take the form of a spiral. It is only at a steady-state bank angle that the track is anywhere near circular. All our turns in Moto Gymkhana will take the form of straight - spiral in - radius - spiral out - straight and so on. The quicker we can get to riding a radius, the quicker the bike is being turned and that is where knowing where the CCofG and use of body position comes in. If a rider knows that their bike is happy with a 45 degree CCofG bank angle then there is no point spending ages getting there. You will notice that most of the top Japanese riders get the bike banked over so quickly it looks like they are about to go all the way and fall to the ground.

Because they know where their CCofG is going to be they can happily set up these very quick roll rates in the certain knowledge that they will be able to arrest the roll the instant they achieve the correct angle.

Most bikes are happy with a roll rate of up to 85 degrees per second, but most riders are only happy with a rate of about a third of that, so you can imagine that the spiral described at 85 degrees/second is much, much smaller than that at 25-30 degrees/second.
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Old 09-17-2012, 06:39 AM   #426
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Our dutch gymkhana day in Krefeld (in Germany ;) )

where with 10 bikes, 2 GS, 2 bandids, GSX ( i think), aprilia 250, yamaha YBR 125-er (the others, I don't remember what kind of bike they where).

We started with 4 basic exercises.
GP8, Cloverleaf, slow slalom (is that english?) and a circle

After it we made a course

The parcours:

I managed to ride it in 1:16 on my BMW F800GS

The bikes:
http://www.motor-forum.nl/download.p...4046891762bec1

The fastest bike of the day:
http://www.motor-forum.nl/download.p...bf81d21d7c14c7

The fastest driver of the day:


and a movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmBGo...&feature=share

this practice day will be organised every 3rd sunday of the month, so on 21 October we will meet for a next time.
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Old 09-17-2012, 05:21 PM   #427
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Storm shadow, I doff my hat too you, 4am, -2.... that is dedication. I can see why you were looking for more light.... Middle of the night, freezin your jewels off, no doubt the bod is saying "can we sleep now?"

That's quite a tough place to practice, your fenced in.
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Old 09-17-2012, 06:44 PM   #428
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Ah its warm we get -17 here a few months ago. Didntveven wear the heated jacket

send on a small touch screen by a guy with fat fingers
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Old 09-17-2012, 07:22 PM   #429
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Ah its warm we get -17 here a few months ago. Didntveven wear the heated jacket

send on a small touch screen by a guy with fat fingers
It's not the drink then..
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Old 09-17-2012, 07:32 PM   #430
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hah, when i send things on my phone with tapatalk, i can put in a custom message, i figure it was better than the line sent on somekinda phone using tapatalk
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Old 09-18-2012, 05:57 AM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulfy View Post
Gymkhana is a weird beast.

Its not flashy enough, like stunting, to attract crowds. And for people to be interested in watching it from outside, riders have to be at the top level, otherwise, with all honesty, its pretty boring to watch regular riders going round the cones at what looks to be a pretty relaxed pace. Its a THRILL while you are IN it, but to the outside its sort of .... "meh".

I blame the internet, youtube, and all its fulfilling of instant gratifications.

you can pull up video of insane hill climbs, riders ragdolling, crashes with life defying odds, and racing that .makes your but thole pucker..... in 30 seconds.

no wind
no rain
no noise
no smells
no forces

but the vision is there, and the viewer is desensitized to future experiences. why else are kids/adults of today so unimpressed and "bored" with life?


Gymkhana is
feeling the g's
falling down
sliding
turns
leaaaaarrrrrrrrrning


a fucking blast!
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scrolling through the words to get to the pictures is cool, but i'm really just here for the tracks and waypoints... post some ok ?
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:44 AM   #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohgood View Post
I blame the internet, youtube, and all its fulfilling of instant gratifications.

you can pull up video of insane hill climbs, riders ragdolling, crashes with life defying odds, and racing that .makes your but thole pucker..... in 30 seconds.

no wind
no rain
no noise
no smells
no forces

but the vision is there, and the viewer is desensitized to future experiences. why else are kids/adults of today so unimpressed and "bored" with life?


Gymkhana is
feeling the g's
falling down
sliding
turns
leaaaaarrrrrrrrrning


a fucking blast!
Well said!
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:58 AM   #433
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reminds me of the line from that movie basketball, you know th eone,

where fat guys with bad knees can still have a chance at winning.

motokhana, you dont have to have the fastest bike, any bike will do,
you dont have to have a race team, or equipment
you dont have to be fit, or have racedays and 1000s of hours of track time
and its legal, car park speeds arnt going to get you put in gaol
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:20 AM   #434
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And as if all that wasn't enough, it makes you a better rider!

Can't wait to get out and practice some more. Unfortunately, weather here's been bad (wind gusts of over 100MPH in my neighborhood, no joke!), and I've got a bearing going bad in my rear wheel so I've been keeping the riding to a minimum. So much for "not wanting to waste a day" of riding season on my daily rider
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:43 AM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norcalwelder View Post
What I'm not sure about though is should I be counter leaning at slow speeds, or should I be going fast enough that I hang off the bike in the turns?
I think sometimes it may depend on the bike as well. Counter leaning puts the bike further over, so it you the bike doesn't have enough ground clearance you may be touching hard parts sooner with CL versus leaning into the turn.

On another note, watching these video's, how the heck do these guys remember where to freaking turn. Some of the courses look really confusing.
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From what I understand from frequenting various forums you are handling this critisim completely wrong. You are supposed to get bent out of shape and start turning towards personal attacks. Get with the program!
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