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Old 09-24-2013, 11:19 AM   #1441
Oreh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post
1. The pylon (cone) marks the exit of the turn and your bike wants to be as close to it as possible with the front wheel pointing in the direction of the next turn point.

2. Better to go faster between the pylons and slower around the pylons.

3. Your bike goes where your nose is pointing so always snap your head around towards the next pylon just as you start the turn around the current pylon.

4. Apply the brakes before you close the throttle and open the throttle before you release the brakes.
Thank you for your comments and advices.

1. I'm trying to ride in such a way, but (my) video shows that the "cone" is still more in the middle of a turn. So I have to work on that.

2. From (your) video, it is clear that is a significant difference in speed between the pylons and around the pylons, but for me it has been shown to achieve a better time if I ride smoother over the entire route. This is probably because I do not drive at optimum line through the turn.

3. I know that, but by analizng my video I realized, that I snap my head had too late. Think, this is the main reason for my turns being so wide.

4. I'm opening throttle before relase brakes, but never tryed to apply the brakes before close the throttle. Will try that, but I'm afraid my bike charachteristic will not allow that. And I don't see the reason why will that improve my time. Can you explain more about reasons and techiques for doing this.

Oreh screwed with this post 09-24-2013 at 11:25 AM
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Old 09-24-2013, 12:12 PM   #1442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oreh View Post
Thank you for your comments and advices.

1. I'm trying to ride in such a way, but (my) video shows that the "cone" is still more in the middle of a turn. So I have to work on that.

2. From (your) video, it is clear that is a significant difference in speed between the pylons and around the pylons, but for me it has been shown to achieve a better time if I ride smoother over the entire route. This is probably because I do not drive at optimum line through the turn.

3. I know that, but by analizng my video I realized, that I snap my head had too late. Think, this is the main reason for my turns being so wide.

4. I'm opening throttle before relase brakes, but never tryed to apply the brakes before close the throttle. Will try that, but I'm afraid my bike charachteristic will not allow that. And I don't see the reason why will that improve my time. Can you explain more about reasons and techiques for doing this.
i just can't help maself, i gotta post about this !


1 wide entry, tight exit - you'll see and feel the difference as you try to do it.
2 it gets faster/smoother as you get the turns better
3 not something to focus on, that will change as you learn
4 watching my buddies, this is how smoooooooth happens. heavy acceleration and braking become a progressive application (and release) of both braking/throttle, so that there isn't pause between the on/off of throttle, or the on/off of brakes.


(god i love the cone talk, i'll keep going now)

one of our local guys (hey mike!) was watching the fast japanese riders, and caught how they made their turns so fast. the wide in, tight exit with lock somewhere around 75% completion of the turn was what he noticed. we spent a session trying to get it right, and succeeded once or twice. it's very difficult to untrain the old habits of wide/wide or tight/wide for entry/exit. we learned that keeping the ENTRY speed up a little and completing the braking along with getting to full lock or very close when the rear tire was even with the cone looked like a key. after quite a few runs, we got it consistantly, and could see each other doing it. it's almost as though the bike tosses itself upright from the increase in braking and steering getting tighter i guess. at that point it's time to be INTO THE THROTTLE already, so that the bike is pointed at the next cone's entry line.

make sense ?

watch this guy at 15 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTO2s7wyrFs


of course, we're no where near as fast, but you can see how he's entering wider than he's exiting. the bike is on throttle while it's standing up past apex, and GONE.

i love this stuff !
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:17 PM   #1443
Jezza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oreh View Post
2. From (your) video, it is clear that is a significant difference in speed between the pylons and around the pylons
Part of the significant difference in speed is due to the guy in the video being on a set of warm slick racing tires not strictly allowed in Moto-Gymkhana

The other part is down to pure talent and being prepared to accept you will throw the bike up the road while learning to ride this fast, even Marky Marquez can't seem to stay on a bike longer than 15 minutes during practice.
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:02 AM   #1444
Harvey Krumpet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohgood View Post
heavy acceleration and braking become a progressive application (and release) of both braking/throttle, so that there isn't pause between the on/off of throttle, or the on/off of brakes.


(god i love the cone talk, i'll keep going now)

one of our local guys (hey mike!) was watching the fast japanese riders, and caught how they made their turns so fast. the wide in, tight exit with lock somewhere around 75% completion of the turn was what he noticed. we spent a session trying to get it right, and succeeded once or twice. it's very difficult to untrain the old habits of wide/wide or tight/wide for entry/exit. we learned that keeping the ENTRY speed up a little and completing the braking along with getting to full lock or very close when the rear tire was even with the cone looked like a key. after quite a few runs, we got it consistantly, and could see each other doing it. it's almost as though the bike tosses itself upright from the increase in braking and steering getting tighter i guess. at that point it's time to be INTO THE THROTTLE already, so that the bike is pointed at the next cone's entry line.

make sense ?


i love this stuff !
I concur.

When we were practicing regularly I was thinking about having an entry marker for the GP8, starting closer & moving it gradually further out to see how it affected my exit & time.
And yeah, using the cone as a pivot for the rear wheel gets you to full lock exceedingly quickly but I always mis-judge the length & lock of the bike because I enter to tight. Braking into the turn came quite easily but using the front brake to tip the bike in, maintaining the rear brake for control & keeping throttle on to exit is a lot of stuff to do at once. Releasing the back brake when the rear wheel is pointing where you want to go is a challenge, too. It does not feel to me that I'm following the front wheel track, if I do, I again fluff my line & usually end up exiting to tight.

Mind you, it's improved my ability to stuff the bike into a corner on the road no end. Whooooooah over she goes, and braaaaaaap, out we come.

Watching the pros I see very little brake light so can only assume that they have amazing feel for grip & balance, their transition is very quick, just like a motogp racer, they brake, they gas it, no fluffing about in between.
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:57 AM   #1445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezza View Post
Part of the significant difference in speed is due to the guy in the video being on a set of warm slick racing tires not strictly allowed in Moto-Gymkhana

.

Two things confused me here:
Are you saying y'all don't allow slicks, or that you do?

And

Motogymkhana you speak of .... And "allowed" , is there a governing/sanctioning body that you ride under ? Rules and stuff ?
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:26 AM   #1446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohgood View Post
Two things confused me here:
Are you saying y'all don't allow slicks, or that you do?

And

Motogymkhana you speak of .... And "allowed" , is there a governing/sanctioning body that you ride under ? Rules and stuff ?


I merely pointed out that in this instance, the highly skilled rider in this video (who did an amazingly fast time BTW) is running race slicks, which, if you know what you're doing, would reduce your time. Nobody I know uses slicks, as in NY we all ride 100% legal street bikes. Which to my understanding is how Moto-Gymkhana is run around the world. So maybe this was a practice session.

As for rules, in NY we ride in the spirit of the original Moto-Gymkhana, we are a group of like minded riders who meet to increase our skills and have fun.

So we don't have any formal rules as such. I would hope that in the near future we could secure a more permanent place to ride and hold competitions. Experience tells me, then we will need some formal rules.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:19 PM   #1447
Vulfy OP
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As Jezza said, we do not follow any hard set rules here in NYC. However Moto-Gymkhana IS a sport in Japan and seems to be growing rapidly in UK as well. As any organized sport, it does have rules and regulations, one of which is that motorcycles participating in Moto-Gymkhana events, have to be street legal, which rules out racing slicks.

Vulfy screwed with this post 09-25-2013 at 07:21 PM Reason: Fat fingers...
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:06 AM   #1448
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Any gynkhana groups in sydney?

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Old 09-26-2013, 05:47 AM   #1449
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All this talk about rules and regulations. How lame. Just drop coness and go ride.

This really doesn't need to be a NASCAR mess.
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:27 AM   #1450
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Originally Posted by ohgood View Post
All this talk about rules and regulations. How lame. Just drop coness and go ride.

This really doesn't need to be a NASCAR mess.
Who needs cones?
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Old 09-26-2013, 02:52 PM   #1451
Motogymkhanaman
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Lots of chat about the rules and regulations so to clear up any confusion...

Slick tyres are strictly forbidden in Moto Gymkhana events in Japan and Europe. We do often see riders using road legal but lightly treaded rubber designed for track day use, but only the top riders can get these anywhere near working temperature during the short warm-up and figure 8 sessions before a competition attack.

For us humans it is much better to use a mid-range touring or sport-touring tyre as they get to working temperature almost straight out of the box and are therefore more useable.

The guy in the GP8 video riding the Honda Supermoto is called Noboru Yoshino and the day I shot that video his bike was fitted with a pair of road-legal Bridgestones.

If anybody would like a copy of the regulations, just email me at duncan.motogymkhana.org and I will happily send you a copy.
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:02 PM   #1452
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Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post
The guy in the GP8 video riding the Honda Supermoto is called Noboru Yoshino and the day I shot that video his bike was fitted with a pair of road-legal Bridgestones.
I'm happy to accept what you saw. Here is the reason I suggested this rider was on Slicks, there is no visible tread
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:10 PM   #1453
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Throttle and Brakes - an explanation.

The Japanese make a great thing about 'Driving Force' being the key to negotiating a course in a very fast time. They measure this driving force in units which are determined by taking the number of braking units from the number of throttle units. They imagine that the throttle is calibrated into ten units with zero being closed and ten being fully open. Same with the brakes, zero off and ten full-on.

During the slow part of the rotation turn they want to see two units of driving force applied to the rear wheel. These two units could be achieved by having two units of throttle and none of brake, but that would be very difficult to achieve as the ability to steer at full-lock requires the brakes to be on so that when they are released the bike will pick up.

Much better to achieve these two units by having a lot of throttle units and a lot of brake units and so long as the end result remains at two units of driving force all will be well.

Top riders like to do rotations with around 8 units of throttle force opposed by 6 units of braking force. When they want to pick the bike up it only requires that the brakes are released and the bike surges forward due to the practically wide open throttle. During the pick-up phase the top riders wind the throttle on just a couple more units so the throttle is nearly against the stop.

All this takes lots and lots of practice so the Japanese suggest that people start with around 4 units of throttle and two units of brake and slowly increase the amount as they become more skilled at the use of the technique.
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:14 PM   #1454
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Jezza, I think it's more down to my rubbish camera and the fact that Yoshino-san had practically worn the tread off his tyres that makes them look like slicks!

I have just checked the photo's I took on the day and the tread is very much visible, besides the shame of using and 'illegal' tyre when Mr Adachi was wandering around the paddock would probably have been too much for Yoshino-san to bear.
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:47 PM   #1455
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Jezza, I think it's more down to my rubbish camera and the fact that Yoshino-san had practically worn the tread off his tyres that makes them look like slicks!
Of course the real reason I suspected slicks was his sheer speed, now I know he was on street tires, I realise I have to to work a lot harder
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