ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Hacks
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-28-2012, 08:36 PM   #1
Square4 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Oddometer: 120
Techniques for Mountain Back Roads

I wanted to start a thread about how to ride steep, rutted, stony, ledges on mountain roads. I have not done much of this on three wheels. I find that when I am on these roads they always slope away from the mountain and as such I find that when going with the cliff to my left I lower the sidecar with my tilt control and when going with the cliff on the right side, I raise the sidecar so that it is running level. I find that this helps out a lot but still have some problems regarding tire pressure. I am running all tires at maximum cold pressure on the bike because if I do not do this I get excessive wear from time spent on the road. However, when riding on the rougher stuff this high pressure makes all of the tires hard and they tend to bounce off of everything. I think it would be a benefit to lower the tire pressure for all three wheels. I have a car tire on the rear of the bike and on the side car and they are r15/165 tires. I run the bike tire at 42 psi and the sidecar tire at 36 psi. I was thinking that lowering the tire pressure would improve handling and reduce the jarring from hitting these obstacles. I think that this would provide better control but have not done experiments to assess the amount that the pressure needs to be dropped to achieve improved control. I was wondering what experience others have had with tire pressures for these mountainous road conditions?

AceRph screwed with this post 05-29-2012 at 07:25 AM Reason: Fixed font to make it more readable
Square4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2012, 01:06 PM   #2
chiba
elitist BMW snob
 
chiba's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Annandale VA
Oddometer: 1,177
I don't do a lot of off-road riding, but one of the best pieces of advice I ever got related to doing light off-roading (gravel roads, packed dirt, fire trails, rutted roads, rocky roads, etc) was to lower the tire pressure.

I don't see why doing the same thing on a sidecar rig would be a bad thing. I obviously don't know anything about your tires, but still - 42 psi sounds high for the front tire no matter what - maybe that's your rear (car) tire though? I keep my rear (car) tire at 38, which is what the manufacturer recommends (on the sidewall). I run my front tire (Metz ME880) at 36 and my sidecar tire at whatever it says on the side (I can't recall the # right this second). If I was going to be riding all day on roads like you describe above, I'd probably drop 10 lbs of pressure out of each tire.

You might think about adjusting your shocks as well - after all, their whole job is to absorb those bumps!! Dial back the preload & soften up the rebound a little.

I'll trade a little handling & feeling safer for a little tire life any day.
__________________
As-Salamu GS-em

Iron Butt Magazine - not just for LDR!

- 05 R1200GS - 98 K1200RS + Hannigan Classic sidecar -
chiba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2012, 03:21 PM   #3
Abenteuerfahrer
Deaf on Wheels
 
Abenteuerfahrer's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Leland, North Carolina, USA
Oddometer: 2,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Square4 View Post
I wanted to start a thread about how to ride steep, rutted, stony, ledges on mountain roads. I have not done much of this on three wheels. I find that when I am on these roads they always slope away from the mountain and as such I find that when going with the cliff to my left I lower the sidecar with my tilt control and when going with the cliff on the right side, I raise the sidecar so that it is running level. I find that this helps out a lot but still have some problems regarding tire pressure. I am running all tires at maximum cold pressure on the bike because if I do not do this I get excessive wear from time spent on the road. However, when riding on the rougher stuff this high pressure makes all of the tires hard and they tend to bounce off of everything. I think it would be a benefit to lower the tire pressure for all three wheels. I have a car tire on the rear of the bike and on the side car and they are r15/165 tires. I run the bike tire at 42 psi and the sidecar tire at 36 psi. I was thinking that lowering the tire pressure would improve handling and reduce the jarring from hitting these obstacles. I think that this would provide better control but have not done experiments to assess the amount that the pressure needs to be dropped to achieve improved control. I was wondering what experience others have had with tire pressures for these mountainous road conditions?
Front Metzeler Tourance at > 36. Rear Vredestein M/S > 36-38 when offroading; 40 on the slab. Sidecar Vredestein M/S always at 36. The sidecar car tire pretty much acts like a snowboard skimming over inclement terrain if not too loaded. Whether low or high psi doesn' seem to matter. It's the bike that matters the most!

Most all roads on the Mtn' slope away from the Mtn' and you and I use the tilt to correct the lean and make it level. How about going the opposite direction where you cannot use the tilt; do you body lean all the way over (hanging over the sidecar) to assist your lean or do you pack the sidecar with lots of ballast to counter this sometimes dangerous lean. Just curious!

cheers...
Abenteuerfahrer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2012, 08:48 PM   #4
Square4 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Oddometer: 120
Abenteuerfahrer wrote:
How about going the opposite direction where you cannot use the tilt; do you body lean all the way over (hanging over the sidecar) to assist your lean or do you pack the sidecar with lots of ballast to counter this sometimes dangerous lean. Just curious!

The only thing that I have in the sidecar unless I am headed into the back country to do some overnight camping is my normal supply of tools in the trunk, so the sidecar is lightly loaded. If I am going up hill I will shift my weight to the high side but when going down hill there seems to be better control. Going up hill the rear wheel is searching for traction and moves around to do this and going down hill, momemtum seems to help and one can just roll over things in a more controlled manner.

For tires I have a K60 Scout on the front at 42#, an Arizonan on the rear at 42# and Federal tire on the sidecar at 36#. This is a great combination for the asphalt but do not like the abrupt bouncing on the mountain roads. I am thinking that the next time I get to ride some mountain roads which will be in mid June, I should just plan on finding a stretch of road that I ride then adjust tire pressures, ride again and keep repeating this until I find a combination that provides the "best" compromise of tradeoffs between protectilng the tire/rim and giving the smoothest most controlled ride. When I am bouncing around, I do not feel like I am in control so a tire that is softer that rolls over things might provide better feedback and feeling in control. The down side is that a softer tire is more vulnerable to damage if things are hit at speed.

Any thoughts that others have found that work for adjusting tire pressures will be informative and any other techniques for riding these mountain roads will be useful for me as well as other readers of this thread.
Square4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2012, 09:01 PM   #5
ag_streak
Tiene Ruta Cuarenta?
 
ag_streak's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: At the pointy ends of the bell curve (33702)
Oddometer: 3,178
You didn't mention if you're running tubed or tubeless tires. Offroad bikes (with tubes) run as little as 6 or 8 PSI, but you can't do that with tubeless. Considering the greater weight of a sidecar and tug, I would think somewhere between 18 and 22 PSI would provide some of the improvements you mentioned without too much risk of pinch flats on tubes or or losing the bead on a tubeless tire.

I am not an expert on this. I don't even play one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...
__________________
It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society. J. Krishnamurthy
BC, Canada Ride Report - Nova Scotia, Canada Ride Report

Improve your cosmic karma here!
ag_streak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2012, 09:23 PM   #6
Square4 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Oddometer: 120
Tubeless

In response to Ag_streak all of the tires that I run are tubeless. Not sure how that impacts tire pressures but I am sure it has an effect and probably limits how low in pressure that one can use.
Square4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2012, 11:08 AM   #7
Mr. Cob
Howling "Mad", Adventurer
 
Mr. Cob's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2001
Location: Granite Falls, Washington State, USA
Oddometer: 9,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Square4 View Post
In response to Ag_streak all of the tires that I run are tubeless. Not sure how that impacts tire pressures but I am sure it has an effect and probably limits how low in pressure that one can use.
Howdy Square4,

Running low tire pressure with tubeless tires OFF ROAD is an invitation to a FLAT. If you hit a rut, rock or other obstacle at an angle chances are your going to pop the bead of the tire off the rim of the wheel, unless you have a way of re-seating the bead of the tire your going to have a hell of a time re-inflating it. My advise if your going to do this carry a can of starting fluid with you and learn how to reseat the tire beads using it.
__________________
Dave, aka "Mr. Cob"

My photos, http://mr-cob.smugmug.com/ Join Smugmug, use this coupon https://secure.smugmug.com/signup?Coupon=geyYbNZwLLrl6
Mr. Cob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2012, 08:37 PM   #8
Square4 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Oddometer: 120
Dave; I kinow that you are more of an expert than I am regarding sidecaring off road. I was wondering what tire pressures you have used? Do you run yours at the maximum? If not, to what extent have you backed off from the maximum and not had any problems?
Square4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2012, 09:30 PM   #9
Mr. Cob
Howling "Mad", Adventurer
 
Mr. Cob's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2001
Location: Granite Falls, Washington State, USA
Oddometer: 9,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Square4 View Post
Dave; I kinow that you are more of an expert than I am regarding sidecaring off road. I was wondering what tire pressures you have used? Do you run yours at the maximum? If not, to what extent have you backed off from the maximum and not had any problems?
Howdy Square4,

I am hardly an expert at anything other then doing stupid stuff and so far living to tell the tale.

Seriously, on my Ural's I run full pressure on and off road ALL the time. The Ural tires have tubes in them so theoretically I could run lower tire pressures but doing so would endanger the tire and make handling very difficult.

With the weight of a sidecar rig even if it isn't heavily loaded the stresses on the tires are much more then on a similar two wheeled motorcycle. The sidewalls of the tires on a sidecar equipped bike have MUCH more stress on them then does a motorcycle, when the sidecar rig turns the sidewall of the tire tries to roll under and off the wheel rather then follow the curve as a normal bike does when it is "leaned" over.

Having the tire at full pressure also protects the wheel from damage, this is especially true if a person has "cast" wheels, spoked wheels will absorb a lot more shock then will a cast wheel. Yes there are a few times when dropping the tire pressure a "bit" might help but then on a tubed tire one must worry about the tire spinning on the rim and ruining the tube, this is not a problem with a tubeless tire but if the pressure is low enough the tire could slip on the rim or the bead may break either way causing a flat tire.

My Beemer hacked GS has tubeless car tires on the pusher and the hack, this size tire and wheel on the hacked GS may allow safe pressure lowering within reason. However as I NEVER plan to abuse my Beemer the way I regularly treat my Ural's its something I'll never have the occasion to experiment with. So my advise would be if your going to experiment with lower tire pressures have the needed tools and skill to either change tubes or re-seat the bead on tubeless tires.

As a long time driver of a highly modified Jeep I would often lower the tire pressure to 5pounds or less on 44 inch tall tires however these tires were equipped with implement tubes. Some of my friends who could afford the setup ran "bead locks" on their tubeless wheels and could also run very low tire pressures, still from time to time a flat tire would result from over zealous activity, NOT that I would ever participate is such anti-social behavior.

Get the proper tools and skills, try out different tire pressures on different types of terrain and report back to us how it works for YOUR rig, we can always learn, this is YOUR chance to educate us.
__________________
Dave, aka "Mr. Cob"

My photos, http://mr-cob.smugmug.com/ Join Smugmug, use this coupon https://secure.smugmug.com/signup?Coupon=geyYbNZwLLrl6
Mr. Cob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 11:25 AM   #10
ag_streak
Tiene Ruta Cuarenta?
 
ag_streak's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: At the pointy ends of the bell curve (33702)
Oddometer: 3,178
I think we're all in violent agreement here!
__________________
It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society. J. Krishnamurthy
BC, Canada Ride Report - Nova Scotia, Canada Ride Report

Improve your cosmic karma here!
ag_streak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 11:55 AM   #11
jeffygs
Gnarly Adventurer
 
jeffygs's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Middle of the US
Oddometer: 469
So please, I wanna here about the starting fluid way of seating a bead. maybe a video!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Cob View Post
Howdy Square4,

Running low tire pressure with tubeless tires OFF ROAD is an invitation to a FLAT. If you hit a rut, rock or other obstacle at an angle chances are your going to pop the bead of the tire off the rim of the wheel, unless you have a way of re-seating the bead of the tire your going to have a hell of a time re-inflating it. My advise if your going to do this carry a can of starting fluid with you and learn how to reseat the tire beads using it.
jeffygs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 12:17 PM   #12
Mr. Cob
Howling "Mad", Adventurer
 
Mr. Cob's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2001
Location: Granite Falls, Washington State, USA
Oddometer: 9,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffygs View Post
So please, I wanna here about the starting fluid way of seating a bead. maybe a video!!!!
Howdy jeffygs,

Ask and you shall receive.........

I chose this video because these guys have some credibility but in this film they left out one VERY important tip and just barely touched on another at the end of the film.

Tip ONE, remove the valve core BEFORE using the stating fluid, this is to prevent blowing the tire off the rim.

Tip TWO, the starting fluid is only used to seat the bead it is NOT used to inflate the tire, you must have a means to pump air into the tire to re-inflate it to the proper pressure AFTER the bead is seated and the valve core reinstalled. And now on with the show.

__________________
Dave, aka "Mr. Cob"

My photos, http://mr-cob.smugmug.com/ Join Smugmug, use this coupon https://secure.smugmug.com/signup?Coupon=geyYbNZwLLrl6
Mr. Cob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 12:28 PM   #13
Billtr96sn
Flange Furtler
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Location: Somerset, UK
Oddometer: 393
You tube some Icelandic offroaders and how the reseat their tyres using easy start, lighter fluid, hairspray anything like that will work.
Billtr96sn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 01:31 PM   #14
ag_streak
Tiene Ruta Cuarenta?
 
ag_streak's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: At the pointy ends of the bell curve (33702)
Oddometer: 3,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billtr96sn View Post
You tube some Icelandic offroaders and how the reseat their tyres using easy start, lighter fluid, hairspray anything like that will work.
Didn't find the tire inflation, but the first Icelandic Offroaders video I clicked on was Thread of Awesome material!

__________________
It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society. J. Krishnamurthy
BC, Canada Ride Report - Nova Scotia, Canada Ride Report

Improve your cosmic karma here!
ag_streak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 01:39 AM   #15
Billtr96sn
Flange Furtler
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Location: Somerset, UK
Oddometer: 393
Aussie (I think) Insect repellant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN5B5...eature=related
Billtr96sn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 02:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014