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Old 06-14-2012, 08:50 AM   #676
Kristof Granit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Cob View Post
If a small company is struggling to pay the cost of after market parts in an effort to improve the bike, where are they supposed to get the money to move the whole production facility thousands of miles, transplant or train a new work force and reestablish working relationships with the other business partners they have?
...
My knowledge of business is even lower than my experience with the Urals...
but I am lucky enough to have been twice at Irbit, so I know that it's not located "200 miles north of Kazakhstan" (Midnullarbor post) and I have a concrete idea of the various problems due to the location.
1- Moving the whole production: (Back to the history?)
a- close to a big city like Moscow or St Petersburg easiest for the logistic to Europe and US. But at what cost? higher price for the land, the rent, the wages,...

b- close to a "secondary city" with lower prices than St Petersburg but also well deserve in term of logistic, like in the south...

2- Partial move:
The heart of Ural stay at Irbit. The "raw product" frame, tank and even assembled engine are sent to one (Russia) or two others places (Russia+Europe or US) for the final assembly including painting.
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:54 AM   #677
GreatWhiteNorth
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KLR650 rig

You don't need the leading link mod. Steering is surprisingly light on my rig with stock forks. Wide handlebars are a good idea however... for the leverage. What's wrong with a used KLR? Good ones can easily be found for $1500 - $2500. With careful shopping you could build that rig for $5K or thereabouts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
Kawasaki KLR 650, $6299
DMC enduro sidecar, $2495
DMC mounts, $550
DMC sidecar brake, $385
LL front end. $1500

Total, $ 11,220

Now since this is in comparison to a new finished, RTR Ural, figure another $1000 - $2000 for installation, paint and other assorted incidentals.
So we have an all new sidecar rig that has similar performance, a few known "issues", no reverse, an open enduro tub, a void warranty on a new motorcycle, and all for $2000 - $3000 more than a Ural Tourist T rig.

So yes a new Ural is expensive, but it is also a fair value when compared apple to apple.
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:09 AM   #678
windmill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorth View Post
You don't need the leading link mod. Steering is surprisingly light on my rig with stock forks. Wide handlebars are a good idea however... for the leverage. What's wrong with a used KLR? Good ones can easily be found for $1500 - $2500. With careful shopping you could build that rig for $5K or thereabouts.
I was just trying to show the comparison on equal terms. Comparing new and used is meaningless, if you want to be fair compare a used KLR to a used Ural.
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:31 PM   #679
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This thread has me even more certain about my feelings towards Urals..



I still want one.....


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Old 06-14-2012, 03:30 PM   #680
roscoau
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Originally Posted by gspell68 View Post
But still, bottom line, I don't think you are getting the bang for your buck that you could elsewhere when it comes to similar displacement motorcycles offerings from other manufacturers.
That most American of institutions - the marketplace - will make that call. It seems to be looking good so far.

Everyone has their opinion if they care enough. I guess it's good that you care enough about Ural to have an opinion and still be posting at this point.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:18 PM   #681
oppozit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristof Granit View Post
My knowledge of business is even lower than my experience with the Urals...
but I am lucky enough to have been twice at Irbit, so I know that it's not located "200 miles north of Kazakhstan" (Midnullarbor post) and I have a concrete idea of the various problems due to the location.
It's just over 360 miles north of Kazakhstan by road, a bit less as the crow flies. http://www.della-kz.com/distance/?cities=30446,29290
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:00 PM   #682
Midnullarbor
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My apologies to Kristof Granit if I am in error about Irbit's location.

I had quickly consulted my Times World Atlas ~ admittedly copyrighted in the Brezhnev era ~ and I saw that Irbit was [apparently] located about 200 miles north of Kazakhstan. On looking more closely, it seems that Irbit lies nearer to 220 miles north of the Kazakhstan border "as the crow flies" (or 200 nautical miles as the Sukhoi/MiG flies . . .) and perhaps I should have expressed the distance as 350 Km . . . or 380 Versts?

But enough quibbling.
Regardless, Irbit is moderately remote from world markets.
About 100 miles of train track from the major city of Sverdlovsk, which is itself inconveniently distant from a shipping port.
Outwards transport of "product", and inwards transport of smaller foreign components, must be an unpleasant logistics burden of cost.

All the same, three cheers for IMZ.
Wherever you are in the world you can, if you wish, produce something worth buying by world citizens.
Just not at Shanghai/Walmart prices.

For one, I would hate to see everything in this world produced in one giant super-efficient super-cheap Megalopolis stretching from Peking to Canton (okay . . . Beijing to Guangzhou) while the rest of us happy peasants cook hamburger/fries for each other.
"Let a thousand flowers bloom and a thousand factories contend" [if I may thoroughly misquote].
Even if it costs a bit more.
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:12 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by windmill View Post
$445 per unit, Irbit to Newark?
That seems low, perhaps that is just the basic port to port cost (Hamburg? to Newark), not including the trucking and rail costs, plus the many associated fees, insurance, ect. ?
That was a P&O quote from Irbit to Brisbane, not the cheapest freight carrier and certainly not the cheapest destination. Newark would probably half the price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
The increase in cost over the past dozen years may be a little higher than average, but how much of that is reflected in the major switch to purchasing brand name components from the open market, rather than sourcing parts domestically and in house?
Also wouldn't it be safe to say that in 2000 the price of a Ural was still artificially low due to the legacy of having been a State owned and subsidized operation?
Uralmoto wasn't State-owned or subsidised in 2000. It was "privatised" in the early '90's, bought by OMC in 1998, (supposedly asset-stripped) then taken over in a management buyout in early 2000 and divided into three companies in mid-2000. Safe to say those prices were realistic for late 2000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
A 2012 Ural Tourist is $11,800, what was the MSRP of a Tourist in 2000?
1998 price was $6,295

Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
Some pundits say IMWA/Ural is broke, others say they are price gouging? Seems contradictory to me.
IMWA is an American company, IMZ a Russia company. The two are not the same. Russian newspapers repeatedly cite IMZ as being bankrupt. It seems to survive from hand to mouth. IMWA being a private company - who knows. IMZ quoted a wholesale price for sidecars in 2000 of $400. Two years ago Molot was quoting the same price for the Sputnik sidecar. Molot has no reason to underquote on sidecars as their principle products are expensive firearms.
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:00 PM   #684
windmill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oppozit View Post
That was a P&O quote from Irbit to Brisbane, not the cheapest freight carrier and certainly not the cheapest destination. Newark would probably half the price.
I must admit I know little about costs for trans Atlantic shipping, but I am suprised that it would be cheaper than what I have seen of trans Pacific shipping.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oppozit View Post
Uralmoto wasn't State-owned or subsidised in 2000. It was "privatised" in the early '90's, bought by OMC in 1998, (supposedly asset-stripped) then taken over in a management buyout in early 2000 and divided into three companies in mid-2000. Safe to say those prices were realistic for late 2000.
I think I put my question poorly. Having been a State entity than was turned private must have had some effect on pricing as it was already a going concern, not a "new" company with all the normal start up costs. An example would be the last incarnation of Indian before Polaris bought them out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oppozit View Post
1998 price was $6,295
My last new MC was a 2001 V-Star 650 classic at an MSRP of $3995, In 2011 MSRP was $6890. In that light a 2000 Tourist at $6295, and a 2012 Tourist is $11800 does't seem that big a difference considering the number of upgrades done in that time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oppozit View Post
IMWA is an American company, IMZ a Russia company. The two are not the same. Russian newspapers repeatedly cite IMZ as being bankrupt. It seems to survive from hand to mouth. IMWA being a private company - who knows. IMZ quoted a wholesale price for sidecars in 2000 of $400. Two years ago Molot was quoting the same price for the Sputnik sidecar. Molot has no reason to underquote on sidecars as their principle products are expensive firearms.
Corporate finances are way out of my league.
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:59 PM   #685
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Where is the beating the dead horse smileyface??











I still want a Ural
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:14 AM   #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RidingDonkeys View Post
So for $2200 more than a Solo, I can get a ready made sidecar rig? I can't buy a brand new frame and tub to add it to any other motorcycles in my stable for $2200.

I think we just reestablished why the Ural is a deal. :)

Man, I love how this thread just goes in circles...
That's what I said earlier: The value of a Ural is in the sidecar, not the motorcycle.
If you separate the two, you practically have to give the motorcycle away!
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:35 AM   #687
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Originally Posted by roscoau View Post
That most American of institutions - the marketplace - will make that call. It seems to be looking good so far.

Everyone has their opinion if they care enough. I guess it's good that you care enough about Ural to have an opinion and still be posting at this point.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Ural is doing well.
The problem for the rest of us who truly enjoy the brand (and all its foilbles) are effectively priced out of owning one, even a used one or a parts bike, by guys like the original poster who are expecting something that a Ural is not and never will be.

On the IMZ-Ural site, on the specs page of every model, it says, "Recommended max speed: 65MPH".
What part of that confuses people?!?!? The number one question every prospective buyer asks is, "How can I make a Ural go faster?" Guess what? You can't!!! Oh wait, you're going to be the genius that will do in your garage what state backed German and Russian engineers couldn't do in the last 70 years!!! (The upside to that 65mph is that you can do it on the highway, on a dirt road, or on train tracks!)

Ural caters to the wants of the potential new rig buyer because that's how they make money. But, because a Ural will never be a Honda, there's always a quick turn around from those who learn this fact the hard way. However, they still expect to recoup all their money on a non-running motorcycle they've lost interest in.
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:42 AM   #688
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Originally Posted by GeezerStank View Post
They used to say 2005 and up, then due to improvements they say 2008 and up. I waited until the 2010 improvements and bought a new one. Buy the newest one you can afford. I don't want to piss off the Ural 650 guys, but I wouldn't buy one of them.
There's really nothing wrong with a Ural 650.
There's rumors of the crankshafts breaking, but I suspect that's due to improper carb balancing where one side is running at 60mph and the other side is trying to run at 30mph.
And if it blows up? Big deal. An NOS engine is about $600-$700. You can't even buy a set of Harley exhaust pipes for that much!!! And it takes about 2 hours and a 6-pack to install an engine...
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:23 AM   #689
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The potential tragedy for Ural is Russia's swing towards capitalist consumerism. In the ongoing efforts of Putinland to be an economic superpower this particular motorcycle may well be doomed by a home market that is probably no longer interested, i.e. it's not the only kid on the block, as well as the comfort zone of the state customer. Noted other eastern bikes have long since been similarly affected and effectively disappeared.

Maybe an answer could be to produce a line of accessories and lifestyle items, as exemplified by a well known vee twin manufacturer. Then maybe it doesn't matter what the bike costs, or even its performance, as long as the sunglasses are genuine...............
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:31 AM   #690
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Originally Posted by FLYING EYEBALL View Post
Where is the beating the dead horse smileyface??











I still want a Ural


I would like one also, I am just afraid it will explode as I ride down the road at 15mpg.





















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