ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Road warriors
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-30-2012, 02:58 AM   #1
tommyvdv OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
tommyvdv's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Belgium
Oddometer: 399
kawasaki er5 engine f*cked?

Hi
Could anyone make an assessment based on the events that occurred with my friends kawasaki er5?

dropped the bike while engine was on
engine remained on
rider turned engine off a couple of seconds after the drop
we righted the bike and checked for leaks, it spat out some fluids while on the ground
everything looked undamaged
tried to start, starter works, engine goes round but sounds strange (flooded) and does not pick up

I also noticed a rattle, not a consistent rattle, but like something is going round and getting stuck every X times the engine turns round.

By the time we got to the dealer (truckloaded) starting was out of the question (maybe battery dead or cylinder fully flooded)

I realize that making assumptions based on a few facts is hard and hardly accurate, but it might help me understand what is going on with this bike. I just can't get my head wrapped around the fact that this bike failed after being gently put down and picked up again.

Thanks for your opinion!
Kind regards
tommyvdv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2012, 03:27 PM   #2
buickid
Lets ride!
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Location: Oahu, HI
Oddometer: 310
Did you check the oil after it was righted? If oil came out of the engine, it might have run dry. I suppose it could've hydrolocked the engine as well.
__________________
2005 Yamaha Zuma YW50, 2009 Kawasaki Super Sherpa KL250
buickid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 06:29 AM   #3
R-A-M-O-N
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Buenos aires, Argentina
Oddometer: 297
Also probably carbs flooded so you may have fuel in your oil, probably the air filter and the whole engine. Best to empty the carbs floats, empty the oil, check the air filter, check the plugs in case they fouled if overfueled. I dont think the coolant could get contaminated but maybe its worth changing it too.
R-A-M-O-N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2012, 11:28 AM   #4
bete
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: kansas Flint Hills
Oddometer: 507
er5 is fool injected isn't it? should not flood or gas lock. bete.
bete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2012, 12:48 PM   #5
GreaseMonkey
Preshrunk & Cottony
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: The only county in Illinois with no train tracks
Oddometer: 5,150
I am curious as to what you mean when you say the engine sounds "flooded"?

Does it spin easier/faster than normal, or spin slower/harder than normal?

As the saying goes, check the simple things first which would be all the electrical connections including ignition system, probably the easiest thing to damage would be an ignition terminal.

If you have spark, and the plugs are clear and not dry and the engine truly does sound funny when it cranks then you need to do a compression test.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2012, 03:44 AM   #6
tommyvdv OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
tommyvdv's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Belgium
Oddometer: 399
the verdict of the mechanic is as follows:
- engine flooded and kept flooding due to carb needle stuck
- piston full of fuel could not ignite
- cam chain (? distribution chain literally translated) skipped a tooth (or 2)
- valves not in correct position and cilinder hit the valves

6 out of 8 valves crooked.

I know how an engine should work in theory, but i've not much experience with fiddling about with them.
Other people said it's far fetched, but plausible.

er5 is a carb engine. not injected.
tommyvdv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2012, 10:50 AM   #7
GreaseMonkey
Preshrunk & Cottony
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: The only county in Illinois with no train tracks
Oddometer: 5,150
What the mechanic said is plausible, yet contradictory.

If the timing chain skipped enough to bend the valves, there would not be enough compression for the engine to "flood" at all, since it would not run no matter how good or bad the carburetor was.

How does he know exactly how many valves are bent, has he removed the head?

Normally I would be suspicious of this scenario, however you mentioned the motor sounding different after the bike was picked up. Did the engine seem to spin a bit faster than normal when trying to start it? That is the classic symptom of valve train problems, since the valves are not sealing for whatever reason so the engine does not have any compression to work against so it spins faster. It usually sounds similar to how an engine sounds when you crank it with no spark plugs in.

Anyway, as long as you trust the mechanic I hope your friend gets it repaired as quickly and as economically as possible.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2012, 03:35 AM   #8
tommyvdv OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
tommyvdv's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Belgium
Oddometer: 399
I don't really trust the guy enough to go out on a limb. We're getting another motorcycle to replace the er5.
And i'm thinking about fixing it myself. Hopefully with help from experts like yourself on the far-off sideline :)

The mechanic took the top off and exposed the inner workings. He showed me that the chain is kind of ok, but he wouldnt trust it. And the part is fairly cheap. The valves are bent but i didnt yet see them. The piston has marks of where the valves hit, but there doesnt seem to be any damage to the head. The piston rings on one cilinder seem worn. Can move the head around about 1mm inside the cilinder.

That's all the info i have up until now.
tommyvdv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2012, 08:25 PM   #9
R-A-M-O-N
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Buenos aires, Argentina
Oddometer: 297
If thats what happened then its really bad luck. I was sure about the flooding but the timing chain skipping a tooth its odd, at least i wouldnt expect it to happen in normal engine conditions, unless it was loose before the drop and the bike got a hell of a rev when falling.
R-A-M-O-N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2012, 03:28 AM   #10
tommyvdv OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
tommyvdv's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Belgium
Oddometer: 399
it didnt. It got revved in a way you would when you make a turn.
Then it returned to idle and stayed that way until it was on its side. And then we shut it off..

Maybe we should've let it run while we righted it.

It was not dropped hard. More in a way that you would lay down an egg. The rider let the bike get away from 'er. The weight was too much too hold but she struggled to let it down softly. A couple of inches from the ground she couldnt cope and let it go. Her leg was between the bike and the ground. She crawled out and turned the engine off (key). We righted it and waited for a minute or so. Tried to start. Didnt work. Tried to push-start. Didnt pick up.

I guess we damaged the engine by trying to start rather than dropping it.

Still not completely sure about the way this flooding caused damage though.

I'll be picking it and the parts up in the next couple of days and post some pics.

tommyvdv screwed with this post 06-13-2012 at 03:42 AM
tommyvdv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 10:37 PM   #11
ADV8
Taumarunui..Darwin..
 
ADV8's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: North of Sydney.
Oddometer: 2,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyvdv View Post
the verdict of the mechanic is as follows:
- engine flooded and kept flooding due to carb needle stuck
- piston full of fuel could not ignite
- cam chain (? distribution chain literally translated) skipped a tooth (or 2)
- valves not in correct position and cilinder hit the valves

6 out of 8 valves crooked.

I know how an engine should work in theory, but i've not much experience with fiddling about with them.
Other people said it's far fetched, but plausible.

er5 is a carb engine. not injected.
Normally if a cylinder is hydraulic ed it will tweak the connecting rod as the piston comes up and the liquid (fuel in this case) can not be compressed.
You would think if the cam chain jumped the sprocket either the exhaust valves (being chased by the piston at TDC) or the inlet valves (meeting the valves coming to TDC) would have been effected,inlet or exhaust,not both. (6 out of 8 valves)

On a simple drop like that you would think a new noise might have been something simple like the generator cover taking a hit and the rotor/stator etc touching at rotation.
__________________
Les .. 1968 Husqvarna MF250 and MF360 - 1971 Norton Commando Fastback - 1973 Kawasaki H2A - 1973 Ducati 750 GT - 1973 Moto Guzzi Eldorado - 1974 Kawasaki H2B - 1974 Triumph TR5T Trophy Trail - 1981 Ducati 900 SD - 1986 Husqvarna 400 WR - 1998 Suzuki TL1000S - 1998 Suzuki TL1000S - 2007 Ducati Hypermotard 1100S - 2008 Suzuki DR780.
ADV8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 09:06 AM   #12
itsatdm
Beastly Adventurer
 
itsatdm's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Nor Ca.
Oddometer: 4,406
I think what your mechanic says is possible. A complete hydrolocked cylinder will lock up the engine. I doubt laying on its side a short period of time would result in that. The engine apparently could turn over with just "some" gas in the cylinder. Engine compression could force it past the rings.

The bent valves can only be caused by the bike being out of time. Skipping a tooth or two is not as common as some people think. It is possible if the chain or sprockets are worn, or if the tensioner slipped. If a ratchet type tensioner, teeth on the rack do wear, allowing slippage of the tensioner with enough force (starter). If oil pressured, laying on its side may have starved the tensioner for oil.

I think, trying to start the bike with resistance on the pistons, caused the timing slippage which allowed the bent valves to occur. Kind of irresistible force meets immovable object kind of thing.

I bent all four of mine in my thumper. It only takes a couple of crank revolutions. The damage you describe sounds expensive. $380 in parts and machine work on my single cylinder bike. That is 4 valves, head gasket and seals. I provided the labor. No other damage. You should replace your chain, if in doubt, head gasket at minimum and possibly the tensioner.
__________________
BMW Motorrad USA customer service: "We make superior motorcycles and continue to improve them."

itsatdm screwed with this post 06-15-2012 at 11:52 AM
itsatdm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 02:05 PM   #13
trc.rhubarb
Beastly Adventurer
 
trc.rhubarb's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Concord, CA
Oddometer: 1,851
wouldn't the cam be driven off the crank? If the crank can't turn (from being hydrolocked), the cam cant turn and jump a tooth right?

Seems a used head would be a lot cheaper if the cylinder and piston are in good shape already... seems a simple swap since the old head is off already right?

If the valves bent from the drop I'd guess the tensioner failed and the cam jumped. If the cam jumped far enough, i can see all valves eventually binding between the intake and exhaust strokes.
__________________
2007 BMW GS Adventure
2000 Ducati 900ss
2010 Harley Ultra Limited
1975 R90/6
Follow me here
trc.rhubarb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 03:32 PM   #14
killme_quik
the street n00b
 
killme_quik's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: Port hueneme, CA
Oddometer: 40
Drain!

drain everything, and try to un-seize the engine
__________________
2005 Suzuki DR650
++TARDED
killme_quik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 08:29 PM   #15
itsatdm
Beastly Adventurer
 
itsatdm's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Nor Ca.
Oddometer: 4,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by trc.rhubarb View Post
wouldn't the cam be driven off the crank? If the crank can't turn (from being hydrolocked), the cam cant turn and jump a tooth right?

Seems a used head would be a lot cheaper if the cylinder and piston are in good shape already... seems a simple swap since the old head is off already right?

If the valves bent from the drop I'd guess the tensioner failed and the cam jumped. If the cam jumped far enough, i can see all valves eventually binding between the intake and exhaust strokes.
I thought that was what I said. If not, it is what I meant. Some gas meant enough to fill a combustion chamber, not filling a cylinder.

I suspect it takes a while to get a great deal of gas in the engine, if it is dribbling through a fuel jet, unless it lays there for a while.

The rattle is your loose cam chain, either hitting the engine block or slipping on one of its sprockets. I am quite familiar with that sound.
Don't know at what point you heard that, but you started bending valves when you did.

Its a vertical twin. The pistons rise and fall together. One piston is coming up on exhaust, the other compression. One is going to spit out the gas, the other partially locked, but not enough to stop the engine. The fact the one piston has some lateral play supports that theory. If that piston got a running start, you could have broken a ring or a piston lan as the gas is forced through it.

You have an interference engine and your valves bent right at the valve, cocking them at some angle, right? BTW the mechanic can detect that without taking off the head. You will have about 1/2" of valve clearance at the cams. The valves cannot recede back into their seats. The only way to bend valves is if the bike gets out of time. Once the head is off, the engine should turn

If you have the typical Kaw automatic cam chain tensioner, it consist of square rod with grooves on the top. A spring pushes it into the cam chain guides to take up slack. It has a triangular pivoted lock that falls into a groove. The problem is over the years, the teeth round over and do not lock up well. Not that hard to get it to slip. Some replace with a manual screw type tensioner.

I suspect your engine is toast, but it is going to take more inspection to be sure. If the rest of the engine is OK, find a used head.

Not to set off any alarms but it is possible to damage rod and crank bearings, break pistons, rings or bend a rod. I am pondering that myself. Little damage to the piston top but the engine sure sounds noisier than I remember it. Maybe the valves are set on the loose side, but I wonder.
__________________
BMW Motorrad USA customer service: "We make superior motorcycles and continue to improve them."

itsatdm screwed with this post 06-17-2012 at 05:05 PM
itsatdm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 11:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014