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Old 06-10-2012, 06:31 PM   #31
NJ-Brett
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My car has 140,000 miles on it, and is 13 years old, and no sensor or FI related failures.
What more can you ask for?
Since Fi does not flood the engine on cold starts, the gas does not wash the oil off the cylinder and rings, so you get less engine wear.

Have you ever ridden a bike with a good FI system?

A pumper carb has lots of moving parts, cv carbs have their own issues, and they can wear out, needles wear, float valves wear, floats get holes in them, petcocks leak or plug up, jets clog, slides wear.
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:36 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G600 View Post

A carb is a simple mechanical device that has very few moving parts.
I've never had a problem with fuel injection, car or bike, except for a bad wire on an injector harness once. K100LT pump was dislodged when I dumped it. Pickup truck has a poor pump in one tank. All easily fixed by the side of the road. Other than that they just run.
Have had to fix hundreds of problems with carburetors, either clogged from sitting, or running poorly at a different elevation than it was tuned for, bad o rings, misadjusted floats, leaking float valves, clogged jets, leaking overflows, bad gaskets, the list goes on and on and on and on.

While it could be argued that a carb cam be fixed trailside and FI likely cannot, most folks now days couldn't begin to fix a carburetor anyway, so it's a moot point.
They make bikes to sell, FI sells.

They really do run nice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by G600 View Post
Stricter emission regulation is the key here IMHO. During the last years new bikes have gone from:
Well setup carbs -> horribly lean carbs -> FI

I'd much rather ride a perfectly fueled FI bike than a lean carbed on.

tkent02 screwed with this post 06-10-2012 at 06:53 PM
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:44 PM   #33
Garp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G600 View Post

Now ..I can understand the gimmick factor. I also can understand the hardcore racer or aggressive rider trying to better their time. I do understand the benefits of FI for extreme altitude changes.

But I don’t understand why the average ADV rider would want the added complexity for the little gains it offers. I suspect most do not.
Sorry, fuel injection is a gimmick? You really believe that?

You must hate Electric Starters, Overhead Cams, the needlessly complex and failure prone new fangled "pneumatic" tires.

How far back do we have to go to re-establish "simple and reliable" in your terms? Is it always 20 years behind the times? 30 years behind? Model T's were far simpler, perhaps we should have stopped with them?

Have you studied the Luddite movement?
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:44 PM   #34
Reposado1800
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I have 2 fuel injected bikes and 3 carbed bikes. Hands down the fuel injected are better. The WR250R/X even has a back door hack to richen the mixture from the dash. No programmer needed.
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:45 PM   #35
jon_l
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G600 View Post
Wow. You guys are actually comparing a FI to a carb’s reliability. Really. Come on guys.

A carb is a simple mechanical device that has very few moving parts.
Are you sure FI has more moving parts than a carb? I am not a good mechanic, nor a mech. engineer, but I don't accept that statement as a given. Granted, I have been wrong before.

In any case, depending on your age and taste for "classics", you're setting yourself up to give up motorcyles, because carbs will be gone in a few years regardless of your preference.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:33 PM   #36
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Yep ... those carburetors are so simple ...

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Old 06-10-2012, 08:19 PM   #37
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About THE ONLY "common" "trail-side" fix I know of where a carb is superior is if you get debris in the jet Vs. EFI's injector...


Ok, so you got some bad fuel... It's waited all this trouble free time to happen now? 1 million miles from the nearest store?


Ok, so your filter should of caught that, but it didnt...

Just how big of a deal is it to pack an extra fuel filter... And just how much space does the fuel pump for a motorcycle take up?


Gee.... The flashlight or insert other life saving but packable item here; ______, or an extra fuel pump..? Decisions decisions.


Otherwise, Vaseline the connectors and bring tampons to soak up any water that might get into a connection. (See: Top Gear Bolivia Special)
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:28 PM   #38
G600
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Quote:
I've never had a problem with fuel injection, car or bike, except for a bad wire on an injector harness once. K100LT pump was dislodged when I dumped it. Pickup truck has a poor pump in one tank. All easily fixed by the side of the road. Other than that they just run.
Ok. But I have. Two years ago I basically threw out (or sold very cheaply) my VW car since I did not want to waste time studying the FI of that car, and it was not worth taking it to a professional. The exact same happened last week with my wife's nissan micra. Both cars were old though, no big deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkent02 View Post
Have had to fix hundreds of problems with carburetors, either clogged from sitting, or running poorly at a different elevation than it was tuned for, bad o rings, misadjusted floats, leaking float valves, clogged jets, leaking overflows, bad gaskets, the list goes on and on and on and on.
Ok. But in my 35 years of motorcycling I have never had a serious carb problem. Lots of small problems, sure but easily fixed. We have better fuel over here it seems as clogging problems are mainly isolated to grit and dirt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkent02 View Post
While it could be argued that a carb cam be fixed trailside and FI likely cannot, most folks now days couldn't begin to fix a carburetor anyway, so it's a moot point.
They make bikes to sell, FI sells.

They really do run nice.
I do not want to believe it, but maybe that´s it. I have always thought of motorcyclists as different from most car owners. Most folks today have no clue, if the car wont go "brrrr" they take it to the shop as expected considering the complexity of modern cars. Maybe most motorcyclists today "have no clue" and are perfectly happy about it.

Yes, they do run nice. I bought my first and last FI thumper last year, a XT660R. I did study that bike like i always do, but the more I learned about the bike the less I liked it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkent02 View Post
I'd much rather ride a perfectly fueled FI bike than a lean carbed on.
Oh, yes. But a lean carb becomes a well setup carb right after it leaves the dealership
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:29 PM   #39
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My guess is we will see the end of Carburetors in 2015. Just like the big push on the 4-strokes it seems something major changes about every 2-3 years to get us all to go out, and buy a new bike.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:15 PM   #40
ER70S-2
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Fuel Injection

What could possibly go wrong?

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Old 06-11-2012, 12:31 AM   #41
IheartmyNx
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Lots of "mechanics" in this thread...
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:57 AM   #42
subybaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G600 View Post
Ok. But I have. Two years ago I basically threw out (or sold very cheaply) my VW car since I did not want to waste time studying the FI of that car, and it was not worth taking it to a professional.

...

I do not want to believe it, but maybe that´s it. I have always thought of motorcyclists as different from most car owners. Most folks today have no clue, if the car wont go "brrrr" they take it to the shop as expected considering the complexity of modern cars. Maybe most motorcyclists today "have no clue" and are perfectly happy about it.
Ok, I'm not really ragging on you, but I just couldn't pass up the comparison of these two paragraphs.

Btw, check out this EFI retrofit- pretty simple, really: http://ecotrons.com/400cc_to_800cc_Engine_EFI_kit.html
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:09 AM   #43
MuscleGarunt
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Actually when a car starts with FI it starts in open loop which is maximum fuel. Similar to putting the choke on. It works with the IAC to create a 10:1 or so fuel ratio to start the car. The IAC then begins to add air while the FI is still operating in open loop until the MAF and OS heat up enough to tell the ECU to lean things out a bit. Then the car or whatever will generally run on the ragged edge of lean around 14.5 to 17.5 to 1 ratio until the knock sensor detects a detonation episode then the ECU will rich things up. The leaning continues until it detects detonation and the cycle repeats it all happens 10000 times a minute. Good for fuel economy and engine performance but I just like carbs on a motorcycle.

But I'm a hillbilly living on the little appendix of Washington out in BFE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ-Brett View Post
My car has 140,000 miles on it, and is 13 years old, and no sensor or FI related failures.
What more can you ask for?
Since Fi does not flood the engine on cold starts, the gas does not wash the oil off the cylinder and rings, so you get less engine wear.

Have you ever ridden a bike with a good FI system?

A pumper carb has lots of moving parts, cv carbs have their own issues, and they can wear out, needles wear, float valves wear, floats get holes in them, petcocks leak or plug up, jets clog, slides wear.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:12 AM   #44
MuscleGarunt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducksbane View Post
Yep ... those carburetors are so simple ...

Carbs are not that confusing to service. Lets see the same picture of a FI system.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:32 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by siyeh View Post
Dude, that seems extreme. You better get used to walking.
I haven't read the propoganda in awhile...is writing "dickhole" allowed?

I'd like to start by saying I love fuel injection. I'd also like to point out that I hate fuel injection. Carbs work. They work well. We argue about this frickin' fuel injection wonder, but the fact is it's been around for the better part of a century, and it's not the cat's pajamas. Carbs are mechanical. To my knowledge, all modern fuel injection systems are computer controlled spray nozzles. Better? Sure. I used to drive a '78 honda civic that got 44 mpg, now I have a nice Y2K Corolla that gets 36 on a good day. At $4/gallon I don't really care that the technology is "better." I've replaced the MAF sensor twice, and might have to do the O2 sensors, because the computer thinks everything is hunky-dory even though my mileage has dropped 25%. My 25-year old Yamaha with 4 carbs will rail down the road at 140 if I ask it, and gets 50mpg at 70mph all day long. They were cleaned and synched in 1997, and haven't been touched since. I don't use ethanol-laced fuel, btw.

I'd like to see the manufacturers do away with carbs altogether. It'll make me appreciate what I have even more.

Tuning a carb is an art. Tuning FI is an application. To make FI the cat's meow I think it's gonna take more processing power than what's currently viable. I think GS600 made some good points, and I'd also point out that even though fuel injection is handy, it's not really better. For those out there that switch mounts every few years, maybe it is. Put in gas, change the oil, clean the air filter, ride, sell, start over.

God Speed
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