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Old 01-14-2013, 04:17 PM   #1171
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The thing is the tech used in the EXP400 did actually make it to market on the CRM250, They had active radical 2t engines in the very last models.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:23 AM   #1172
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The thing is the tech used in the EXP400 did actually make it to market on the CRM250, They had active radical 2t engines in the very last models.

Yes, and many of us can still go off tomorrow morning and buy a CRM250AR, albeit second hand. For Honda, it was a relatively simple project, that they easily recouped their money on, through production sales. They stuck to their long planned deletion of all 2ts, by the end of 2007. All while manipulating the sport, towards a 4t monoculture.

Bastards. The sooner they burn in hell, the better!
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:50 AM   #1173
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I think you might be very close to the mark.

It is the sort of thinking - fuel consumption - that Honda would have. Or, the sort of 'argument' proponents of a Dakar / Rally effort within Honda would use as a Big Thing to get / help justify re-entering the Dakar / Rally scene.
[...]
Honda = All Four Stroke, All The Time. Such is life...........
A belated up from me too on a brilliant post. It will be fun to get back to this thread after the Dakar is over
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:12 PM   #1174
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The video isn't very interesting, but I pulled this still shot from it:

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Old 01-16-2013, 09:59 AM   #1175
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Helder ran out of gas while in contention again today.

Sad turn of events, gutted for him as a sportsman, surprised that Honda got it so wrong.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:21 PM   #1176
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Originally Posted by bearorso View Post
I think you might be very close to the mark.

It is the sort of thinking - fuel consumption - that Honda would have. Or, the sort of 'argument' proponents of a Dakar / Rally effort within Honda would use as a Big Thing to get / help justify re-entering the Dakar / Rally scene.

Off course, along with the massive publicity that Dakar gets.

Look at the styling of the team bikes / customer (pre-production?) kits. Really Look. There's a real "family" style to the 'fairing'. Have a squizz at the CBRs - all types, the Cross Tours, the new 3 bike 500 platform. The forward 'wing / radiator shroud' below the nose piece, and the 'straight line' along the downwards edge below it. A very "family" style of bodywork.

Honda won't win - never would have expected to win this first time back. They are just getting back into it. They'll sort things, and probably use lessons learnt throughout the corp. Possibly / most likely with regards to a new / updated CRFX base bike, or, in these straightened times, just another 'model' bike, through different bodywork on the existing CRFX platform. Hey Presto! - A new Rally / Rallye Bike!. Take the market for a 450 Adventure Bike, right from under the nose of KTM, and others.

They'll hire an Alien. If Cyril gets this one, Coma becomes 'available', they might be in line for a very big final contract / paycheck. Contracts, can be broken........... A bloke like Barreda Bort looks like being just a step away from that "Alien" category. And / Or grow / nurture their own - Sam S might be the one they had / have in mind, for a "Alien Growth Project". With apologies to Sam's Mum.

Honda, have influenced so many other sectors of Motorcycle Sport. Hell, why not use their influence to push for Fuel Capacity Restrictions / Fuel Economy. That will push All bikes to be using fuel injection in Rallies - no carbs..........not even for KTM .

Even the mighty (please note - a level of sarcasm here) Honda, can stuff up, and miscalculate the amount of fuel needed. I'd say there may be a fair few engineers stunned by the "non constant wheel spin" or, " wildly variable wheel spin, not fitting within their projected parameters" they've recorded. After all, these are only, just Dirt Bikes - not Moto GP bikes (note sarcasm again). = PGM FI Dakar engineers, just before they fall on their swords.

Remember the EXP / EXP2 bikes - Jean Brucy's 5th outright, on a 400cc 2t. That was a "fuel economy project", if ever there was one (to get it passed by Honda's' higher ups). The same "idea", but of course, with their favoured 4ts, could be a Very Large part of Honda being back. Some engineers, with a love for racing, can think 'laterally', when they are pushing to get back into 'having fun' - Oops - developing new technology, for the benefit of the corporation. Having Fun, For Profit, comes to mind. Engineers, who love racing, can be crafty blighters.

PS : An updated version of the EXP2 = The World, set to rights. And the kicking of a lifetime for the 4ts out there. Of course, it will Never Happen. Just a fantasy of mine. Hopefully, some other company may eventually do something.

Honda = All Four Stroke, All The Time. Such is life...........
Excellent post and no apologies needed for your comment about Sam, I just hope you are right
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:37 PM   #1177
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Originally Posted by bearorso View Post
Honda, have influenced so many other sectors of Motorcycle Sport. Hell, why not use their influence to push for Fuel Capacity Restrictions / Fuel Economy. That will push All bikes to be using fuel injection in Rallies - no carbs..........not even for KTM .
Just a small note here, as Lyndon Poskitt confirmed in a RalyRaidio call-in, KTM have already started on their next generation Rallye bike, and it is confirmed to have EFI, as EU laws state that all plated motorcycles must have EFi after 2015 (or '17, don't remember). But fuel restrictions in an endurance off road race? Not sure, as pilots always carry extra fuel to make up for navigation mistakes. I think restricting fuel on a race like the Dakar will never happen, it's just that to pass scrutineering you will probably need a "green" sticker or some sort of documentation that the original bike/engine conforms to road - legal emissions / specs etc
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:58 PM   #1178
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Still here

Normal service will be resumed in a few days, or maybe a new HRC thread for the year with this being the ongoing focus -

http://www.fim-live.com/en/sport/cro...allies/events/

There must be a massive amount of information gained to now evolve these prototype machines into rally and Dakar production bikes through 2013 and then

Hopefully
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:56 PM   #1179
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Just a small note here, as Lyndon Poskitt confirmed in a RalyRaidio call-in, KTM have already started on their next generation Rallye bike, and it is confirmed to have EFI, as EU laws state that all plated motorcycles must have EFi after 2015 (or '17, don't remember). But fuel restrictions in an endurance off road race? Not sure, as pilots always carry extra fuel to make up for navigation mistakes. I think restricting fuel on a race like the Dakar will never happen, it's just that to pass scrutineering you will probably need a "green" sticker or some sort of documentation that the original bike/engine conforms to road - legal emissions / specs etc

Yes, certainly, the KTM Will have to go to EFI - if only to dovetail into their production bikes. Not a good look, if you don't have faith in your tech, and use carbs, methinks.

EFI being compulsory - not surprised. Though, if it really reads that way, it's complete and utter BS. I'd have to say it will come down to use of only EU certified induction. And, EFI / DFI, may be the only way to achieve that, or, it may be the way to totally "lock" the induction, if you get my drift.

Heck, we are not that far off from ABS becoming mandatory for road use in the EU. Though, I've heard / read there may be exemptions / loop holes for some types of bikes. Anyone remember the Husky / BMW ABS that a few journos tested last year? Husky / BM, getting a jump on things, I'd say.

As Stupid as fuel restrictions sound to Us, don't ever, say never. It's the sort of crap Honda would push for, and it may also be the sort of thing that may be put in place, to placate the Enviro Nazis. Yep, restrict the vehicles in competition, but not the support / event vehicles, and not the **Zillions** of spectators getting out in the Boonies to watch proceedings. Ah, the mindset of 'those that care", can be a strange, and frightening thing.

Make it so you've got a maximum fuel load, with a controlled reserve, that you get big penalties for tapping into. Quite the "control nightmare".

I absolutely don't approve of that sort of thing, but, as I get older, and as I've seen so much change to our sport, nothing, and I mean Nothing, would surprise me, be it Hondas Influence and Shenanigans, ASOs rulings, and the "Fun Police's" ever growing power.

The **Zillions** Of Spectators :

Is this not the most Awesome thing?

To say South America has embraced the Dakar, is one of the greatest understatements of all time.

I'd say that the bidding to have the event pass through a country, is full on, if not downright nasty. Really, the drongos that go on about ASO being in the laps of BMW / Mini, or say, KTM, have no idea.

ASO, I would assume, are getting serious money, from various countries' Governments. It would be relatively cheap advertising for the countries involved.

South America, is a economic giant, in the making. Although, I believe for many countries there, they already are there. Just the potential bike / car sales in South America, would justify the money manufacturers would be spending. Look to the amount of high end SUVs, out in the never never, watching stages. Burro's, and old dungers, are rapidly being replaced by the sort of toys we 'westerners' have had for so long.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:16 AM   #1180
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We could get rid of the EU.
amIright?
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:55 AM   #1181
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We could get rid of the EU.
amIright?
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:06 AM   #1182
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To say South America has embraced the Dakar, is one of the greatest understatements of all time.

I'd say that the bidding to have the event pass through a country, is full on, if not downright nasty. Really, the drongos that go on about ASO being in the laps of BMW / Mini, or say, KTM, have no idea.

ASO, I would assume, are getting serious money, from various countries' Governments. It would be relatively cheap advertising for the countries involved.
This alone deserves a thread of it's own. It has been overheard, in hushed and muted conversations, that the 2008 cancellation was more than just about terrorists. One only has to connect the dots, and compare the GNP of the African nations to the SA ones.

There is also the Berber factor. Back in the early days in Africa, there was a mutual understanding with T. Sabine that the Berbers allowed the rally to pass unharmed in exchange for all the leftover scrap the competitors left behind, and maybe a few other concessions as well. Somewhere along the way, that agreement changed. Also, if I am not mistaken, E. Lavigne is ex French military, though I have yet to find any info on his service record, and wether he was involved in the french North African campaign of the 50s 60s 70s (Algeria etc).

As I said, discussion for a different thread.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:59 AM   #1183
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Back on topic

I can't grasp why Hélder is constantly runnng out of fuel. We are pretty sure that the 3 HRC bikes running are identical, right? Why don't the others suffer? Javier even had enough the other day to donate to Hélder.

My guess is still that is he isn't topping up his tanks (30L), instead he's calculating (wrongly) the amount he will only need for the stage until refuel. I don't believe the injection settings aren't correct, otherwise his bike wouldn't run properly to keep up front.

How much more fuel does a Baja Honda burn that a "stock bike", anybody care to share?
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:21 PM   #1184
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Back on topic



How much more fuel does a Baja Honda burn that a "stock bike", anybody care to share?

I can take a trail ride 45-50 mpg Honda thumper and punish it down to 23 mpg, I can easily see a dune section with a throttle happy rider getting into the 15-16 mpg range or less.


What do we know about the engine in these race bikes?
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:51 PM   #1185
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Back on topic

I can't grasp why Hélder is constantly runnng out of fuel. We are pretty sure that the 3 HRC bikes running are identical, right? Why don't the others suffer? Javier even had enough the other day to donate to Hélder.

My guess is still that is he isn't topping up his tanks (30L), instead he's calculating (wrongly) the amount he will only need for the stage until refuel. I don't believe the injection settings aren't correct, otherwise his bike wouldn't run properly to keep up front.

How much more fuel does a Baja Honda burn that a "stock bike", anybody care to share?
I've got a full house baja motor bought from JCR. It CHEWS fuel. So much more than stock
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