ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-08-2012, 09:00 AM   #196
dwoodward
Beastly Adventurer
 
dwoodward's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet, Napa Valley North
Oddometer: 4,888
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Fighter pilots might beg to differ.
Anyone who went through MSF Instructor Training before 2000 or so (don't know about since then) knows about a study called the "Motorcycle Task Analysis". Short version- operating a car requires 800 discrete skills; a motorcycle, 2400; roughly on a par with flying a helicopter.

Fighter jets are no longer purely left up to the pilot- The F-16 for example has negative stability and requires the plane's computer systems take the fly-by-wire inputs and translate them into something that will result in what the pilot wanted and keep the plane in the air and under control.
dwoodward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 09:50 AM   #197
TheWall
0 miles and counting
 
TheWall's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Somewhere in the cold, frozen north
Oddometer: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
Anyone who went through MSF Instructor Training before 2000 or so (don't know about since then) knows about a study called the "Motorcycle Task Analysis". Short version- operating a car requires 800 discrete skills; a motorcycle, 2400; roughly on a par with flying a helicopter.
Be that as it may, as both a pilot (albeit, not a fighter or helicopter pilot) and a motorcyclist, I seriously question any study that says operating a motorcycle is more difficult than operating an aircraft. Coordinating maneuvers in three dimensions is an order of magnitude more difficult than operating in two.* If you are flying IFR (strictly by instruments) rather than VFR (by visual reference to the outside world), flying becomes even more demanding. Don't believe me? Get an instrument rating, and fly a single-pilot instrument approach to minimums at night. *NOTHING* I have ever done on a motorcycle is as demanding as the few times I've done that.

*Yes, I know. We live in a 3-D world, so technically, a motorcycle is operating in three dimensions. You know what I mean, though
TheWall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 09:59 AM   #198
outlaws justice OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
outlaws justice's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Watertown NY
Oddometer: 1,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post
I disagree, and so does every other person that has set out a definition.
You should re-read the first post, maybe talk to people who also define it and write books like Lee Parks ans Also maybe Nick, or Freddy.

__________________
David
2005 KTM950 Adventure, 2007 BMW K1200GT, 2005 Yamaha Vmax, 2005 Suzuki SV650S, 1991 Honda VFR750, 2004 Honda CRF250X, 2000 Buell Blast................
outlaws justice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 10:27 AM   #199
outlaws justice OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
outlaws justice's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Watertown NY
Oddometer: 1,021
B.Curvin

You need to look at it this way

1. When do you start braking for a corner?
2. When do you stop braking?

3. When do you start to apply the throttle?

You want to crack the throttle open at the start of the turn and maintain or increase throttle all the way thru the turn, Yet while all this is happening you are still on the brakes, The further into the turn you get the less brakes are applied until you are off the brakes at Apex or following apex. So from the time you start to apply the throttle you are still on the brakes, coming slowly onto the the throttle as you slowly come off the brakes.
__________________
David
2005 KTM950 Adventure, 2007 BMW K1200GT, 2005 Yamaha Vmax, 2005 Suzuki SV650S, 1991 Honda VFR750, 2004 Honda CRF250X, 2000 Buell Blast................
outlaws justice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 11:07 AM   #200
Mambo Dave
Backyard Adventurer
 
Mambo Dave's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Pompano Beach, FL
Oddometer: 4,720
OK, so I'm learning here.

I guess I was wrong about it exceeding the limits of traction since we don't seem to be talking about full-out crazy curvy-road riding, but instead about keeping suspension preloaded(?)

I'm willing to start trying it to see if it changes the way my bike reacts through corners (but here in south Florida that will take forever to find out since we have so few actual curves).

Anyway, to anyone doing this - is there a marked increase in front brake pad wear once you start dragging brakes approximately 1/4 or 1/5 more of the time? There has got to be.
Mambo Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 11:43 AM   #201
Wraith Rider
Beastly Adventurer
 
Wraith Rider's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Germany
Oddometer: 1,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
Fighter jets are no longer purely left up to the pilot
As aren't motorcycles, what makes both more complex than say 50 years ago, but still doesn't change the relations.
__________________
"Why not stay in disguise all the time? You know, look like everyone else."
"Because we shouldn't have to."
Wraith Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 12:33 PM   #202
Jim Moore
Beastly Adventurer
 
Jim Moore's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Jax, FL
Oddometer: 12,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post


It really is good fun. Have you done track days or road raced? It really elevates your skills to level you never imagined. I'm still not fast in the big picture, but I'm a lot faster then I ever thought I would be.

At Barber I was turning 1:40s on a Supersport SV650 and won a couple of my races, and a WERA championship. This was my one and only year of racing. The AMA guys run closer to 1:24s, more than 15 seconds a lap faster.
I've never been to Barber, but I can turn a low 25 at Jennings. Or could anyway, before I sold my CBR. I used to screw around with trail braking a little bit. It always seemed to take too much delicacy. I could go faster braking straight up and down, then getting off the brakes and tipping in while getting back on the throttle.

I'm not convinced trail braking is a requirement until you are really fast. Like, "fastest guy in the expert group" fast. You hear a lot of guys talk about trail braking at the track. "I'm WFO until the one board, then I trail brake to the apex, then I'm back on the gas ..." You follow them for a few laps and they're off the throttle 100 feet before the three board and coasting to the apex, then creeping back to the throttle 100 feet past the apex. I'm not saying that's the case with you or anyone here, that's just a general observation.
__________________
Jim Moore
Jax, FL

Pay the lady, PirateJohn, you thieving piece of garbage.
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341
Jim Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 12:43 PM   #203
crofrog
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis Maryland
Oddometer: 1,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
I'm not convinced trail braking is a requirement until you are really fast. Like, "fastest guy in the expert group" fast. You hear a lot of guys talk about trail braking at the track. "I'm WFO until the one board, then I trail brake to the apex, then I'm back on the gas ..." You follow them for a few laps and they're off the throttle 100 feet before the three board and coasting to the apex, then creeping back to the throttle 100 feet past the apex. I'm not saying that's the case with you or anyone here, that's just a general observation.
This is off-topic but my experience with most track drivers / riders is brakes are the last thing they really learn, and the faster the vehicle the harder time they've got getting the brakes right.

The average SM guy kills the average sport bike guy under brakes, and the average 600 rider will demolish the 1000's under brakes.

I think it's really easy to have so much power that you're so scared of the bike after you fired it off down the straight away and things are coming at you so quickly they've got problems handling those emotions and feelings and orientating to the corner coming up at them.

Where the guys on the SM are pinned and topped out at 110 coming into the braking zone consistently. The 1000cc rider might be doing 160 one lap and then be doing 170 the next lap and then 150 the lap after that because they're never keeping it pinned all the way to there RP for brakes on and they're getting such variable drive off the corner before because of lack of consistency in line selection.

With out that consistency coming out of the corner onto the straight and then hitting your braking marker at close to the same speed every time it's really hard to start moving the braking marker in closer to the corner to really learn what the bike can do under brakes.

The consistency in line selection / execution is very different between car track days and motorcycle track days. The intermediate car drivers do a _much_ better job consistently hitting the same line that the moto guys do, and I think allot of that has to do with 1 on 1 feedback the car guys get from the instructor setting right next to them.

Versus following a control rider and being like "oh i totally did the same thing." If I don't hit the same line within inches of where I want to be I botched that corner bike, car or kart.

Oddly enough the best driving / riding I see consistently is Karts and mini riders.
crofrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 01:16 PM   #204
Barry
Just Beastly
 
Barry's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Oddometer: 7,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
So you were braking, not trail braking.
No. He WAS trail braking. Trail braking does not require the use of throttle, even though it *can* be part of trail braking.

Barry
__________________
Tail of the Dragon at Deal's Gap... Avoid it now, do a trackday.

Do not do business with Myrtle West Cycle... Not a reputable vendor by a long shot.
Barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 01:29 PM   #205
Harvey Krumpet
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Shaky Isles
Oddometer: 864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo Dave View Post
OK, so I'm learning here.

I guess I was wrong about it exceeding the limits of traction since we don't seem to be talking about full-out crazy curvy-road riding, but instead about keeping suspension preloaded(?)

I'm willing to start trying it to see if it changes the way my bike reacts through corners (but here in south Florida that will take forever to find out since we have so few actual curves).

Anyway, to anyone doing this - is there a marked increase in front brake pad wear once you start dragging brakes approximately 1/4 or 1/5 more of the time? There has got to be.
I do not chew through brake pads, no idea when I last changed the fronts but I am hard on front tires, typically they only last a bit longer than a rear. My current front will probably need changing before the rear but they are different brands & compounds. Admittedly I'm doing a lot of braking practice, straight line & curves, for bike control & also emergency practice. I would guess that even with the practice which is at relatively low speeds the pads will not wear excessively. Hauling the bike down from high speeds repeatedly on a race track would chew through them much quicker.
On the road I rarely use the brakes in anger, big twins slow down very well by themselves & when I'm braking into corners it's subtle & gentle, I'm just tempering my momentum. Smoothness is the key for brakes & throttle.

Somebody suggested I slow down in an earlier post. I ride very cautiously & take a belt & braces approach to my safety. Getting home happy & safe is paramount. I leave constantly quick riding to the weekend heroes, my pleasure is in riding well.
Harvey Krumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 03:29 PM   #206
B.Curvin
Feral Chia tamer
 
B.Curvin's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Left of the dial. Canton, NC
Oddometer: 2,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
B.Curvin

You need to look at it this way
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
No. He WAS trail braking. Trail braking does not require the use of throttle, even though it *can* be part of trail braking.

Barry
This.

Outlaw, trail braking does not require simultaneous use of the throttle.
__________________
Mutt'n the custard.

Porsche Audi VW
B.Curvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 03:32 PM   #207
Barry
Just Beastly
 
Barry's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Oddometer: 7,115
So since we are here at this juncture, I believe the definition of trail braking is:

"Braking past the point of turn-in to the apex of the turn"

...in the most simple sense.

Any other track dudes got a better definition???

Barry
__________________
Tail of the Dragon at Deal's Gap... Avoid it now, do a trackday.

Do not do business with Myrtle West Cycle... Not a reputable vendor by a long shot.

Barry screwed with this post 11-08-2012 at 03:43 PM
Barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 04:03 PM   #208
dwoodward
Beastly Adventurer
 
dwoodward's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet, Napa Valley North
Oddometer: 4,888
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
So since we are here at this juncture, I believe the definition of trail braking is:

"Braking past the point of turn-in to the apex of the turn"

...in the most simple sense.

Any other track dudes got a better definition???

Barry
If you want the most simple sense.
dwoodward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 04:05 PM   #209
Barry
Just Beastly
 
Barry's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Oddometer: 7,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
If you want the most simple sense.
Works for me.
__________________
Tail of the Dragon at Deal's Gap... Avoid it now, do a trackday.

Do not do business with Myrtle West Cycle... Not a reputable vendor by a long shot.
Barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2012, 05:09 PM   #210
outlaws justice OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
outlaws justice's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Watertown NY
Oddometer: 1,021
If you are using the brakes you are braking. When you should be or not be braking it is still braking. If one person brakes further into a corner than the next person he is just braking deeper into the corner.

If you want the true defeninition maybe talk to those who actually created the technique and those who are the ones who write the books. Have you spent any time talking to people like Freddy Spencer or Lee Parks in person, maybe instead of sitting here telling everyone how great you are take some time to sit down, ride with and get some pointers from those guys. What you think you know and what you know might turn out to be two different things.
__________________
David
2005 KTM950 Adventure, 2007 BMW K1200GT, 2005 Yamaha Vmax, 2005 Suzuki SV650S, 1991 Honda VFR750, 2004 Honda CRF250X, 2000 Buell Blast................
outlaws justice is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 11:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014