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Old 11-08-2012, 05:41 PM   #211
B.Curvin
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Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post


Hmm.



Page 55 of Nick Ienatsch's "Sport Riding Techniques"

"... but as the bike continues to lean into the turn, more of the tire's 100 available points are being used to maintain cornering traction, so the rider must ease off the brake lever to fill the growing need for cornering traction points. This technique is called trail braking, or trailing the brakes off as the bike enters the corner."



Odd. No mention of throttle in his description of trail braking.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:47 PM   #212
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This is off-topic but my experience with most track drivers / riders is brakes are the last thing they really learn, and the faster the vehicle the harder time they've got getting the brakes right.

The average SM guy kills the average sport bike guy under brakes, and the average 600 rider will demolish the 1000's under brakes.


I can definitely carry a higher entry and mid corner speed on my SV compared to a liter bike. On the big bikes I'm too occupied with getting it whoa-ed down (to quote Scott Russell) and get overwhelmed.
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:02 PM   #213
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Couple of questions... trail braking - are we talking front only?

If not, maybe you guys could help me define all I'm seeing in this video then.

At some points it seemed he was drifting, but at others I've wondered if I'm seeing some rear braking.

I've never fully been able to define this style, and I wonder if I ever got back to track days if it's something I'd want to progress to.



Specifcally, like at 0:32,
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:35 PM   #214
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Couple of questions... trail braking - are we talking front only?

It's my understanding the term trail braking applies only to the front brake.

If not, maybe you guys could help me define all I'm seeing in this video then.

At some points it seemed he was drifting, but at others I've wondered if I'm seeing some rear braking.

At the approach to the corner he is "backing it in". One way to do it is juggling the front brake, rear brake and clutch. Imagine you're hard on the front brake approaching a corner, bring in the rear brake just short of locking it up. On your last down shift don't fully release the clutch. Once the revs drop enough you can partially release the clutch and start sliding the rear. Just stomping the rear brake will lock the tire and is much less controllable. By using the clutch for that last bit of deceleration it is much easier to control because the rear never locks up. Release the clutch more for a bigger slide, pull it back in to reduce the slide. Some of the really fast SM guys don't use the rear brake at all. The rear is unweighted to the point that just letting the clutch out gets the rear sliding. With a slipper clutch it's even easier.

I could do it on my XR-R Supermoto, but I was definitely slower. On the track it just happens naturally once you're entering turns fast enough. I wasn't going fast enough so it was just a distraction.

As far as the exits go, he is on the throttle hard (obviously) and most likely controlling the spin with the rear brake.


I've never fully been able to define this style, and I wonder if I ever got back to track days if it's something I'd want to progress to.

Not that he isn't a good rider (he obviously is) but what he is doing is just showing off for the camera. I'll guarantee he isn't backing it in and Stepping it out when he's trying to cut a fast lap.



Specifcally, like at 0:32,

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Old 11-08-2012, 06:41 PM   #215
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BTW. My description isn't the only way to skin that cat.

You may have noticed too that the camera man nearly ass packs him a few times when he starts backing it into a corner. Obviously not the fastest way around a track.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:00 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post
BTW. My description isn't the only way to skin that cat.

You may have noticed too that the camera man nearly ass packs him a few times when he starts backing it into a corner. Obviously not the fastest way around a track.
Trail braking can be with either brake... It's obviously the front is always doing most of the work.

It can be the fastest way around the track depending on the corner or the bike, but only when backing it in is a by product of hard stopping not showing off.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:10 PM   #217
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Trail braking can be with either brake... It's obviously the front is always doing most of the work.

It can be the fastest way around the track depending on the corner or the bike, but only when backing it in is a by product of hard stopping not showing off.
Yeppers. Casey Stoner doesn't do it to show off, but that guy was (I was impressed though )
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:34 AM   #218
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I will repeat this for the benefit of those that did not bother to actually read it the first time.

"If you are using the brakes you are braking. When you should be or not be braking it is still braking. If one person brakes further into a corner than the next person he is just braking deeper into the corner.

And since you also want to quote books here again is one from a book diagraming trail braking in a curve.



If you want the true defeninition maybe talk to those who actually created the technique and those who are the ones who write the books. Have you spent any time talking to people like Freddy Spencer or Lee Parks in person, maybe instead of sitting here telling everyone how great you are take some time to sit down, ride with and get some pointers from those guys. What you think you know and what you know might turn out to be two different things"

No Offence, but I will listen and believe what these guys take the time to explain and show me in person and work with me to improve. And I know for a fact when you pick up the phone and call some of these guys they are more than willing to talk to you and help you understand. And when working with them in person they take the time to make sure you get it right and understand all the components involved.
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:50 AM   #219
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The only true arbiter of what technique 'works' is the clock, hence the reason why racers spend so much time looking at lap and sector times. If the technique 'works' then you go faster, simple.

Trail braking is one of those techniques that allows you to go faster for longer down the straights (go fast in the fast bits) which often results in a faster lap time. On the road, this doesn't matter so much and in fact you can go very quickly indeed along a twisty road and not need to touch the brakes at all. Anyone that's been to a California Superbike School will be familiar with riding round in third gear and not using the brakes. During this exercise pretty well everybody ends up going much faster than they ever would on the road!
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:55 AM   #220
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I gave links to multiple definitions. None of which mentioned the throttle being a mandatory part. I've read many books on riding technique, none of which mention throttle being a mandatory part.(I.E. twist of the wrist, Sport riding techniques). So keep yappin' into the wind, or put up some links validating your point. I took the Ed Bargy school too. Throttle was not included in his definition.

At 10:00 minutes,

"I'm going to leave my front tire loaded, I'm going to leave my steering loaded, I'm going to turn with my brakes on, It's called trail braking. You brake straight up and down as hard as you need to, as you get to your turn in point you start to come off and trail off your brakes as you add lean angle."

Nick Ienatsch.

There, I made it easy for you.






Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
I will repeat this for the benefit of those that did not bother to actually read it the first time.

"If you are using the brakes you are braking. When you should be or not be braking it is still braking. If one person brakes further into a corner than the next person he is just braking deeper into the corner.

And since you also want to quote books here again is one from a book diagraming trail braking in a curve.



If you want the true defeninition maybe talk to those who actually created the technique and those who are the ones who write the books. Have you spent any time talking to people like Freddy Spencer or Lee Parks in person, maybe instead of sitting here telling everyone how great you are take some time to sit down, ride with and get some pointers from those guys. What you think you know and what you know might turn out to be two different things"

No Offence, but I will listen and believe what these guys take the time to explain and show me in person and work with me to improve. And I know for a fact when you pick up the phone and call some of these guys they are more than willing to talk to you and help you understand. And when working with them in person they take the time to make sure you get it right and understand all the components involved.
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:04 AM   #221
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:17 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post
The only true arbiter of what technique 'works' is the clock, hence the reason why racers spend so much time looking at lap and sector times. If the technique 'works' then you go faster, simple.
A while back I suggested that nobody can dispense advise in this forum unless you have been on track. I was mostly joking, but tossing out lap times on known circuits would separate those that can toss out advice from those that should.

Let the spiral continue.

Barry
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:29 AM   #223
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A while back I suggested that nobody can dispense advise in this forum unless you have been on track. I was mostly joking, but tossing out lap times on known circuits would separate those that can toss out advice from those that should.

Let the spiral continue.

Barry

Barry maybe you would be willing to come to an event and run some laps against Lee Parks? let the lap times tell the story? He just did an event at Road America, I am sure we can find out where the next event is if you like. I can call him and see what is planned so you can come out and play. unless you are too busy.

P.S. I have been to the track although I am not a racer as there are no tracks close to me and I do not have the time and money to invest

I am also still open to have lunch with you tomorrow and discuss some of this over a sandwich
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:38 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
A while back I suggested that nobody can dispense advise in this forum unless you have been on track. I was mostly joking, but tossing out lap times on known circuits would separate those that can toss out advice from those that should.

Let the spiral continue.

Barry


2000 SV 650 with six years of racing on it and it's never had the heads off(I.E. it's tired.)

These times are from 2006.

Little Tally 1:04.xx
Barber 1:40.xx
Roebling Road 1:20.xx

Those are the only ones I remember

I think I turned 1:07s at Nashville.
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:53 AM   #225
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Also I think we are trying to adress that the technique can be used on the street to help make people safer. Why do these discussions always go to the track? Yes they are techniques developed on the track as is most technology and in the end it is used to help make you riding on the street, better and safer.

You "Racers" are great examples of what can be done, but I think I will take my lessons from those who have proven themselves so forgive me if I might have some hesitation to do it your way when those who have proven themselves have shown me different.
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