ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-09-2012, 06:05 AM   #226
Barry
Just Beastly
 
Barry's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Oddometer: 7,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
Also I think we are trying to adress that the technique can be used on the street to help make people safer. Why do these discussions always go to the track? Yes they are techniques developed on the track as is most technology and in the end it is used to help make you riding on the street, better and safer.

You "Racers" are great examples of what can be done, but I think I will take my lessons from those who have proven themselves so forgive me if I might have some hesitation to do it your way when those who have proven themselves have shown me different.
Here is the thing. Lee Parks, Spencer, Rossi, I am sure every one of them would not dispute what trail braking is as is being done ad nauseum in this thread.

FWIW, I trail brake almost every turn on every ride, on the street. I trail brake the piss out of my TTR125 indoors, and HAVE to keep the throttle open or it falls flat. On my 560 SMR I trail brake it to the apex with the the throttle off. On my C14 I usually shut the throttle when on the brakes, except for entering my neighborhood from a particular direction which is downhill to 1st gear. That is smoothest when I keep the throttle partially open. I even trail brake my KTM 525 EXC on dirt!

So I believe (I hope) we are all arguing semantics.

Outlaws, can't meet you this weekend to discuss this stuff, I'm riding my dirtbike. Next time you are down this way, ping me. I'll sit with you, or ride with you. My guess is a LOT of communication is lost when typing. What we argue about for days on line is likely dispensed within 5 minutes of actually sitting down and talking. That's my guess.

Barry
__________________
Tail of the Dragon at Deal's Gap... Avoid it now, do a trackday.

Do not do business with Myrtle West Cycle... Not a reputable vendor by a long shot.
Barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 06:17 AM   #227
outlaws justice OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
outlaws justice's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Watertown NY
Oddometer: 1,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
Here is the thing. Lee Parks, Spencer, Rossi, I am sure every one of them would not dispute what trail braking is as is being done ad nauseum in this thread.

My guess is a LOT of communication is lost when typing. What we argue about for days on line is likely dispensed within 5 minutes of actually sitting down and talking. That's my guess.

Barry
I can agree that alot is lost in typing and not being able to explain things as clearly,

I have had multiple opportunities to spend time with Lee Parks all over the country, I have had him spend days working with me, teaching me etc. I have spent many weeks over the last few years learning from working with and teaching With Lee in the US and Abroad. So No offence to you or B.Curvin, but I will take my lessons from him as he has proven himself as a national champion, no. 1 best selling author, and one of the formost recognized instructors. I Personally may not be the fastest rider (I might do better if I had a track closer to me) and I do not treat the street like a race track either, but the things I have learned from Lee and others Like the folks at Penguin Racing have helped make me a better and safer rider as well.

I get the chance to share what I have learned not only here but all over the country and those that know me, know I am not blowing smoke. (I am not implying that you are either)
__________________
David
2005 KTM950 Adventure, 2007 BMW K1200GT, 2005 Yamaha Vmax, 2005 Suzuki SV650S, 1991 Honda VFR750, 2004 Honda CRF250X, 2000 Buell Blast................
outlaws justice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 06:33 AM   #228
Wraith Rider
Beastly Adventurer
 
Wraith Rider's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Germany
Oddometer: 1,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
Also I think we are trying to adress that the technique can be used on the street to help make people safer. Why do these discussions always go to the track? Yes they are techniques developed on the track as is most technology and in the end it is used to help make you riding on the street, better and safer.
The question is: Does it?
Given that we always keep our safety margin on public roads, there are two possibilities:
1. We HAVE TO trailbrake because of a too high entry speed - not physically too high for the corner, but too high to maintain our safety margin. Maybe the setup of the bike changes a tiny bit to make whatever a tiny bit easier, but as long as you're still decelerating you're faster than you would have been if you set your entry speed earlier. How can braking later, approaching a corner at higher speeds be safer?
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with someone riding a bit riskier or just at same risk only a bit faster. I realy like to do such things myself. But I doubt the argument that it does reduce the risk.
2. We choose the entry speed we would choose without trailbraking and still trailbrake. At the end of the day that makes us slower, what makes us safer, ok, but choosing a lower entry speed in the first place would achieve the same thing.

So how is trailbraking safer under public road conditions?
__________________
"Why not stay in disguise all the time? You know, look like everyone else."
"Because we shouldn't have to."
Wraith Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 06:37 AM   #229
Barry
Just Beastly
 
Barry's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Oddometer: 7,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
I can agree that alot is lost in typing and not being able to explain things as clearly,

I have had multiple opportunities to spend time with Lee Parks all over the country, I have had him spend days working with me, teaching me etc. I have spent many weeks over the last few years learning from working with and teaching With Lee in the US and Abroad. So No offence to you or B.Curvin, but I will take my lessons from him as he has proven himself as a national champion, no. 1 best selling author, and one of the formost recognized instructors. I Personally may not be the fastest rider (I might do better if I had a track closer to me) and I do not treat the street like a race track either, but the things I have learned from Lee and others Like the folks at Penguin Racing have helped make me a better and safer rider as well.

I get the chance to share what I have learned not only here but all over the country and those that know me, know I am not blowing smoke. (I am not implying that you are either)
Can't fault you for putting stock in what you know.

I have personally had instruction from folks like Chris "Teach" McNeil, Danny Walker, X Games competitors, Pro/Semi Pro Enduro riders, and nationally ranked WERA/CCS endurance racers. I rode/ride with X Games competitor Jason Conlon, Isle of Mann racers, and AMA Pro riders. I am not the fastest guy in my circle by a LOOONNNNNG shot. But I listen when the company I keep speeks, and they are all terribly fast, smooth, safe riders.

That said, I believe this forum while valuable, is an extremely tedious and inneficient way for us to reach concensus. Which is why I am open to riding with anyone posting here on the street (slow) or track to live and learn.

Barry
__________________
Tail of the Dragon at Deal's Gap... Avoid it now, do a trackday.

Do not do business with Myrtle West Cycle... Not a reputable vendor by a long shot.

Barry screwed with this post 11-09-2012 at 06:55 AM
Barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 06:40 AM   #230
Barry
Just Beastly
 
Barry's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Oddometer: 7,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
The question is: Does it?
Given that we always keep our safety margin on public roads, there are two possibilities:
1. We HAVE TO trailbrake because of a too high entry speed - not physically too high for the corner, but too high to maintain our safety margin. Maybe the setup of the bike changes a tiny bit to make whatever a tiny bit easier, but as long as you're still decelerating you're faster than you would have been if you set your entry speed earlier. How can braking later, approaching a corner at higher speeds be safer?
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with someone riding a bit riskier or just at same risk only a bit faster. I realy like to do such things myself. But I doubt the argument that it does reduce the risk.
2. We choose the entry speed we would choose without trailbraking and still trailbrake. At the end of the day that makes us slower, what makes us safer, ok, but choosing a lower entry speed in the first place would achieve the same thing.

So how is trailbraking safer under public road conditions?
Trail braking gets you into the corner deeper, faster. It extends the straight, and moves your braking zone deeper into the turn. It is an efficiency, vice something that is safer. I would consider trailbraking a high performance riding tool, vice a safe riding tool. That said, all riders should endeavor to know how / when to brake in turns, in case safety dictates a need to get on the brakes (hard?) in a turn.

Barry
__________________
Tail of the Dragon at Deal's Gap... Avoid it now, do a trackday.

Do not do business with Myrtle West Cycle... Not a reputable vendor by a long shot.
Barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 06:47 AM   #231
outlaws justice OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
outlaws justice's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Watertown NY
Oddometer: 1,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
So how is trailbraking safer under public road conditions?
I proper use of trail braking and throttle to brake / brake to throttle transistions helps to keep the suspension of the bike in the sweet spot, which in turn also helps to control the bike, helps in steering etc. (All dependant on the bike you are riding the curve etc.)

1. If you are already on the brakes and the throttle (Proper transitions during trail braking) and something changes, such as we see in many of the pictures posted on the dragon thread, we are in a position to make a change ourselves, we can apply more brake or more throttle with less time involved to do that.

2. As nick pointed out in the original post you can use the brakes to actually tighten the turn, proper use of the brakes in a corner can allow many different changes.

3. There are many corners that you can enter and may not see the exit on some until you are actually passed the Apex, take a run down some of the roads in Eastern Tn. So there are times when even riding well below your limits you may get a surprise, being in a poistion to adjust for this and make changes can make all the differance, but if you do not use it and practice it then when that day and time conmes you will not use it.
__________________
David
2005 KTM950 Adventure, 2007 BMW K1200GT, 2005 Yamaha Vmax, 2005 Suzuki SV650S, 1991 Honda VFR750, 2004 Honda CRF250X, 2000 Buell Blast................
outlaws justice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 06:48 AM   #232
crofrog
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis Maryland
Oddometer: 1,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
P.S. I have been to the track although I am not a racer as there are no tracks close to me and I do not have the time and money to invest
Shannonville Motorsport Park (95mi away)
Calabogie Motorsports Park (126 mi away)
Walkins Glen (158mi)
Mosport International Raceway (188mi away)
crofrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 06:49 AM   #233
B.Curvin
Feral Chia tamer
 
B.Curvin's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Left of the dial. Canton, NC
Oddometer: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
So No offence to you or B.Curvin, but I will take my lessons from him as he has proven himself as a national champion, no. 1 best selling author, and one of the formost recognized instructors.
No personal offense taken.

I am saying this in the nicest way. I never said for you to "do things my way". I am ONLY arguing with you about a particular definition. We'll just agree to disagree, on the definition of trail braking.
















Though I still say your definition of trail braking is inaccurate.
__________________
Mutt'n the custard.

Porsche Audi VW
B.Curvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 07:03 AM   #234
outlaws justice OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
outlaws justice's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Watertown NY
Oddometer: 1,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post
No personal offense taken.

Though I still say your definition of trail braking is inaccurate.
Ok, I will let you tell Lee Parks he does not know what he is talking about when it comes to proper brake / throttle and throttle / brake transistions when it comes to trail braking. until you change his mind I will live with his teachings and teach it the way he wants it done.
__________________
David
2005 KTM950 Adventure, 2007 BMW K1200GT, 2005 Yamaha Vmax, 2005 Suzuki SV650S, 1991 Honda VFR750, 2004 Honda CRF250X, 2000 Buell Blast................
outlaws justice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 07:09 AM   #235
outlaws justice OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
outlaws justice's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Watertown NY
Oddometer: 1,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
Shannonville Motorsport Park (95mi away)
Calabogie Motorsports Park (126 mi away)
Walkins Glen (158mi)
Mosport International Raceway (188mi away)
I have looked into Shannonville, track is in pretty rough shape from what I hear, I would like to do a day or two at Calabogie. All I have been able to determine there are no bikes days At Walkins Glen.

I hear they are going to do bikes at Pocono after a year of no bikes, so that will be nice, I liked it there!
__________________
David
2005 KTM950 Adventure, 2007 BMW K1200GT, 2005 Yamaha Vmax, 2005 Suzuki SV650S, 1991 Honda VFR750, 2004 Honda CRF250X, 2000 Buell Blast................
outlaws justice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 07:10 AM   #236
crofrog
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis Maryland
Oddometer: 1,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
I have looked into Shannonville, track is in pretty rough shape from what I hear
Take the adv then...
crofrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 07:16 AM   #237
outlaws justice OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
outlaws justice's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Watertown NY
Oddometer: 1,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
Take the adv then...
I thought about riding it up to do a class on it, Have not taught on it yet so want to get some practice with the knobbies before Trying that.

Was more fun riding the Vmax and Towing the Hawk, the Vmax gets more respect when you tip that tank into the turns.

__________________
David
2005 KTM950 Adventure, 2007 BMW K1200GT, 2005 Yamaha Vmax, 2005 Suzuki SV650S, 1991 Honda VFR750, 2004 Honda CRF250X, 2000 Buell Blast................
outlaws justice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 07:19 AM   #238
Barry
Just Beastly
 
Barry's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Oddometer: 7,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
Ok, I will let you tell Lee Parks he does not know what he is talking about when it comes to proper brake / throttle and throttle / brake transistions when it comes to trail braking. until you change his mind I will live with his teachings and teach it the way he wants it done.
I may have finally understood all this.

I disagree with your term of braking/trail braking. I do NOT / NOT disagree with the diagram you posted with brake/throttle/lean, or WHY you do so to keep the suspension from going up/down/up/down when braking/turning.

The ONLY nit I have to pick is past turn in, I call it trail braking, and you call it braking.

Are we now on the same sheet of paper?
__________________
Tail of the Dragon at Deal's Gap... Avoid it now, do a trackday.

Do not do business with Myrtle West Cycle... Not a reputable vendor by a long shot.
Barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 07:43 AM   #239
outlaws justice OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
outlaws justice's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Watertown NY
Oddometer: 1,009
[QUOTE=Barry;20006281Are we now on the same sheet of paper? [/QUOTE]

I think we need to just sit down and have lunch, there is a lot of reason why that diagram works (Although to be honest it has changed a little as we do not use the 0% and 100% since this is translated to street riding we want more / less never 0 or 100%

Also we are trying NOT to seperate the brakes and throttle during the whole process, some racers jump off the throttle and jump on the brakes and then carry the brakes deep. We are trying to prevent the handeling changes this causes (And why it worked so well for Freddy and why he was able to improve his lap times and win!) he stopped jumping off the throttle and jumping on the brakes and made a transition, decreasing the throttle and increasing the brakes before turn in, then after turn in decreasing the brakes (Yes still on the brakes after the turn in point) and increasing the throttle. Not making four seperate steps that causes the bikes suspension to move dramatically which takes time to get back under control before you can get better traction and accelerate hard. Buy using the brakes and throttle at the same time you manage to keep the suspension under control, improve traction and accelrate harder sooner. This is not new, Freddy used it to win, Lee Used it to win, and many others use it as well and it is one of the things that seperates good riders and racers from Great riders and racers.

there are many times, many corners and depending on the bike you are riding where you may not have to come all the way off the throttle, just turn it down (Like a dimmer switch) as you make the transistion from throttle to brakes, then as you trasition back you are not trying to bring the throttle off the bottom which can also upset the bike (Especially those with the dreaded "Snatch" issue).

Believe me, there is a lot more to this and this is the reason why Steve was practicing working the throttle and brakes in practice to minimize his suspension travel, working to "be Smooth"
__________________
David
2005 KTM950 Adventure, 2007 BMW K1200GT, 2005 Yamaha Vmax, 2005 Suzuki SV650S, 1991 Honda VFR750, 2004 Honda CRF250X, 2000 Buell Blast................
outlaws justice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 08:21 AM   #240
Motogymkhanaman
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Stratford on Avon, England
Oddometer: 211
Trail braking is a great skill to have, but how can we practice it out on the road without putting ourseleves in an unsafe situation? One answer is to practice off the road at a track day, but at the speeds involved we could still end up sucking nutrients through a tube for the rest of our lives if we get it wrong.

What we need is a relatively safe way of practising that also gives us an ability to find out how well (or badly) we are doing.

In Moto Gymkhana we have a little competition series called GP8 which essentially involves a vast amount of trail braking and cornering all done against the clock. If you are getting it right, you go faster and if you ain't then you will go slower, it's as simple as that.

GP8 uses an internationally agreed size for the course so that thanks to the wonders of the internet, we can compare and contrast our times to those of other riders from around the world. All you need is a corner of a car-park somewhere, a couple of cones and a stopwatch and you're good to go. This is a fantastic way of learning and practicing trail braking yet we probably don't go any faster than 20/30 mph which makes any fall a lot less of an issue than they would be at 120/130mph!

It doesn't matter what sort or type of bike you use, so why not give it a go.

Here is the explanatory video

http://youtu.be/Z8FnJGY9Pdw

Noboru Yoshino, the world's fastest GP8 rider shows how it's done. His best time 26 seconds flat.
http://youtu.be/bXoqgwAz6v0

Eventually I would like to see every rider using their GP8 times for bragging rights on forums like this.
__________________
Dedicated to the wonderful sport of Moto Gymkhana
Motogymkhanaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 10:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014