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Old 11-09-2012, 09:55 AM   #241
crofrog
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The motogymkhana stuff looks fun, and I think you could learn allot from it, but it's no where close to the same as a riding on a track.

The body position's are different, the speeds you're braking from are different and the emotions are going to be different.

The emotions of doing something are an important aspect to realize they're what fire off those Keith Code survival reactions. Coming into a braking zone at 130mph and braking it down to is way more intense than coming into one at 60, and your going to be on the brakes for allot longer which gives you more chances for mistakes and also more chance to really get the braking right.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:56 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post
[FONT=Verdana]One answer is to practice off the road at a track day...
One of many reasons I love gymkhana. I would love to do a track day, but 1) how many Wee-Stroms have you seen at a track? and 2) I am not aware of any tracks that are less than several days' ride away. There might be some in NW Canada somewhere, but you'd have to be pretty hard-core to take two weeks vacation for a single track day in Washington state
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:17 AM   #243
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The motogymkhana stuff looks fun, and I think you could learn allot from it, but it's no where close to the same as a riding on a track.
Quote:
That's what I thought right up until I arrived in Japan for my first ever Moto Gymkhana experience and was thrashed hollow during the tail-chase by a chap on a 50cc moped when I was on a Ducati Monster!

Our Japanese friends say that you can be good at track day, or good at fast road riding, but that will not make you good at Moto Gymkhana. However if you are good at Moto Gymkhana then all other disciplines will be much easier.

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it is all I can say, but be warned, it is extremely addictive. :)
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:27 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post

That's what I thought right up until I arrived in Japan for my first ever Moto Gymkhana experience and was thrashed hollow during the tail-chase by a chap on a 50cc moped when I was on a Ducati Monster!
That doesn't mean much, the monster isn't the right bike for that stuff. Build up a 250cc SM and you'd be pretty hard to beat.

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Our Japanese friends say that you can be good at track day, or good at fast road riding, but that will not make you good at Moto Gymkhana. However if you are good at Moto Gymkhana then all other disciplines will be much easier.
That's because gymkaha is a pretty unique skillset.

I can be really good at riding nasty snotty single track. Doesn't mean I'm going to be fast in the B1K or the dakar, but I'm going to find it "easy"

Versus a B1K racer might find the trails we ride on out here very difficult to ride until he adapts his style.


Quote:
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it is all I can say, but be warned, it is extremely addictive. :)
I'm not knocking it, I don't think I'll find it all that addictive though. I did autocross for a long time in the car. Started doing stuff on permanent circuits and haven't looked back.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:28 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
Believe me, there is a lot more to this and this is the reason why Steve was practicing working the throttle and brakes in practice to minimize his suspension travel, working to "be Smooth"
Thanks, this discussion degenerated into much interweb dick swinging and ball clackin', I just decided to walk away from it. But your absolutely correct.

BTW, I've done the Michel Mercier FAST Race School at Shannonville and had classroom instruction by Mr. Mercier himself (great guy!), my track instructor was Andrew Nelson (top 5 in Canadian Superbike 2012). You know the number one thing they teach beyond the basics? Being smooth on the controls. Specifically the throttle.

As for Shannoville itself, a few of the corners are VERY bumpy and a full race line on those will put you into a world hurt. But overall, at least for my purposes, it was CRACK. I'm toying with doing the Phase 2 of the school again this summer.

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Old 11-09-2012, 10:29 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post

That's what I thought right up until I arrived in Japan for my first ever Moto Gymkhana experience and was thrashed hollow during the tail-chase by a chap on a 50cc moped when I was on a Ducati Monster!

Our Japanese friends say that you can be good at track day, or good at fast road riding, but that will not make you good at Moto Gymkhana. However if you are good at Moto Gymkhana then all other disciplines will be much easier.

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it is all I can say, but be warned, it is extremely addictive. :)
The point he was making is one does not translate directly to the other. An example is all my trophies from auto-crossing my C prepared Mustang do not make you a hot shoe on a road course. It makes you an autocrosser. Likewise, being proficient in a car on a road course may not prepare you for autocrossing. Similar, but different.

I run indoors all winter on a go kart track with seriously talented people... we hit 50mph on indoor mini supermotos... I run with them indoors, yet outdoors they run off and leave me. Similar, yet very different.

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Old 11-09-2012, 10:42 AM   #247
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What track is closer to you Steve, I would love to work out and join you for a track day. I really need to get some laps in on the Vmax as well!
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:49 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
What track is closer to you Steve, I would love to work out and join you for a track day. I really need to get some laps in on the Vmax as well!
Well I believe Calabogie is closer to me. The issue is a bike to ride on the track for me. At the FAST School you can rent their bikes and their gear, but it's spendy (with insurance and everything about $750). That's a big chunk of change when you throw in accommodations and gas 'n shit. FAST lets you use your own bike after tech inspection and that puts it in the realm of affordability.

FAST has the Yam/Kaw/Suz 600 Supersports, SV650 and Ninja 250's for rent. The bikes are all race prepped and modified for teaching (no speedo's, tach's blacked out over 8G's). FAST is ONLY offered at Shannonville.

http://www.fastridingschool.com/

Interestingly enough, the slowest guys at the FAST class I took were the guys that were riding their own bikes. I can hustle the FJR are along pretty good on the street. But on a track that's a whole other ball game. Maybe if I still have my CBR250R next summer...
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:59 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by bungie4 View Post
Well I believe Calabogie is closer to me. The issue is a bike to ride on the track for me. At the FAST School you can rent their bikes and their gear, but it's spendy (with insurance and everything about $750). That's a big chunk of change when you throw in accommodations and gas 'n shit. FAST lets you use your own bike after tech inspection and that puts it in the realm of affordability.

FAST has the Yam/Kaw/Suz 600 Supersports, SV650 and Ninja 250's for rent. The bikes are all race prepped and modified for teaching (no speedo's, tach's blacked out over 8G's). FAST is ONLY offered at Shannonville.

http://www.fastridingschool.com/

Interestingly enough, the slowest guys at the FAST class I took were the guys that were riding their own bikes. I can hustle the FJR are along pretty good on the street. But on a track that's a whole other ball game. Maybe if I still have my CBR250R next summer...
I always take a "Slow" bike First Track day I took a 1991 Ninja 500 and had a ball, second track day I took a 1984 Honda VF500F, again had a ball, last two I used the 2005 SV650S. So I will take something from the garage where ever I go (If I have time and money to go) I would really like to get a session or two in riding the Vmax as well for fun!

What accomodations do you need? are you not in driving range of these tracks?

I use my track time to work on form and technique, trail braking, body position, vision etc.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:04 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Barry View Post
I may have finally understood all this.

I disagree with your term of braking/trail braking. I do NOT / NOT disagree with the diagram you posted with brake/throttle/lean, or WHY you do so to keep the suspension from going up/down/up/down when braking/turning.

The ONLY nit I have to pick is past turn in, I call it trail braking, and you call it braking.

Are we now on the same sheet of paper?



I didn't say it better myself.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:33 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by outlaws justice View Post
I would really like to get a session or two in riding the Vmax as well for fun!

What accomodations do you need? are you not in driving range of these tracks?
Man, I'd love to see you on the track on the VMax. You'd get EVERYBODIES attention. LOL

Unfortunately both Calabogie and Shannonville are between 5-7 hrs away; I live about 250 miles north of Toronto, hell even Mississauga is about 5hrs. After a long day with the adrenalin meter pegged, I have zero energy to get home. In fact, after the FAST school last year I don't think I've slept that good in 5 years!

So now you understand why I say it's so expensive. 2 night hotel stay, plus gas, plus food, plus the cost of = $$$$

For that kind of investment, I'd rather head down to Appalachians for 2 weeks.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:44 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by bungie4 View Post
I live about 250 miles north of Toronto, hell even Mississauga is about 5hrs.
Well I am glad you made it there! Kind of like me going to NHIS, but it was worth the trips!

We will hook up again!
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:08 PM   #253
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Bit of civilised hair splitting going on here me thinks.
Re- Motogymkhana v's the Track.

Riding the cones teaches a lot of the techniques used on a track but in a safer / slower / less intimidating environment. A helluva lot cheaper & more accessible too.
A Friend did stage 1 & 2 of the California Superbike school last year. I was amazed at the parallels.
Their is a video on the thread were Chris "teach" Mcneil states that what works at 20mph works the same at 120mph.

If nothing else the cones give you great skills to stay safe on the road. My riding has changed a lot since I started, I never realised how little I understood bike control, braking and turning in particular. Up until recently the thought of having my bike dropping hard into a turn & increasing steering lock with the front brake applied would have had me taking to my bed.

I also hugely agree with trail braking increasing your safety margin, sometimes there is no way you can accurately gauge your safe entry speed into a corner unless your prepared to get off the bike & have a look first or carry a crystal ball.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:10 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post
That's what I thought right up until I arrived in Japan for my first ever Moto Gymkhana experience and was thrashed hollow during the tail-chase by a chap on a 50cc moped when I was on a Ducati Monster!
Sounds like you were surprised, what implies you hadn't much of a clue about riding at that time. Or you think WE should be surprised, what implies you think everyone who doesn't do gymkhana himself is dumb.

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Originally Posted by bungie4 View Post
Interestingly enough, the slowest guys at the FAST class I took were the guys that were riding their own bikes.
Quite apparent. Would you be more concerned about crashing your own ride or a rent one?

On the "first take the smaller bike" side, I don't get why some of you make such a miracle about it. It's as common to do a slow inspection lap as it's easy to stop accelerating on a bigger bike to practice with constant corner entry speeds every lap.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:30 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post

Quite apparent. Would you be more concerned about crashing your own ride or a rent one?
The main reason its a big fast dirty whore to throw around on a relatively tight track. Mind you, I could probably just leave it in 2nd and concentrate on my skills and eliminate having to shift to 'keep it on the boil'.
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