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Old 07-08-2012, 09:05 AM   #61
markk53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfgc2310 View Post
I think the whole point of the original post was to say there are no simple rules to advanced riding - i.e. making the motorcycle do everything it can do at whatever your level of skill development happens to be.

I'm with you.
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Old 07-08-2012, 01:51 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciferMutt View Post
Interesting. At the beginning of this year I started experimenting with light trailbraking while initiating lean in/turn in. I've found that when done correctly the bike is much more settled going into the corner. I still try to get 80-90 percent of my braking done before turning, but trailing a little brake right as I put the bike into lean, and the smoothly releasing the brake right as the bike reaches the maximum lean (for that corner) just feels better than hammering the brakes on the straight, releasing, then initiating turn in. If I do the latter, the suspension "cycles" twice -- one compression and rebound for the brake/off brake, and another compression as the bike reaches full lean.
Same here... Nick I's book Sport Riding Techniques got me into trailbraking. It took me a while to figure out what the point of it was, but once I got it, I got it (for the reasons you explained above). (By "got it", I mean that I understand the point of it... by no means have I mastered it!)

A good post by Nick I. There is definately a huge gap between joe-shmo-advice and actual technique. Although I do see the value in telling newbies to get their braking over with before initiating a turn. Ninety-five percent of them are just going to be casual riders anyway, with no goal of performance-oriented riding.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:58 PM   #63
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From Casey Stoner about loosing the front at this weekends motogp race:

"I'm pretty disappointed, I had planned to go for my 'win or bin' effort in the last corner, not that one! I was happy on the bike and felt we had a few tenths a lap over Dani and confident I could pull him back in. On the final lap I made a mistake going into the first turn and I had to push a little more than I wanted through some of the sections but I got on to Dani exactly where I wanted and planned to make my overtake in the last corner, if I didn't have an opportunity earlier in the lap. I felt confident but as soon as I tried to turn in a little more, the front went. I was already off the brakes and not in the hard braking area, as soon as I eased of the brakes I guess the weight came off the front and down I went. I'm frustrated I wasn't allowed to get up and try and score some points, the bike was perfect, but the marshals pushed me away. It's our first crash in a race, down to our own mistake, for the first time in a long time so I'm disappointed for sure, but we knew we had the pace. If we can continue this momentum for the rest of the season then we shouldn't be so worried for the Championship."
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:23 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Ienatsch from another forum:
4) Radius equals MPH.
More accurately: Radius = MPH / Lean_Angle

Quote:
5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama.
I don't know what MSF teaches and don't care enough to dig out the answer- but we teach this in Oregon. Can you brake in a corner? Sure- but you have to be that much more careful, because it's much less likely you'll be able to fix a mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post
Nick is correct on every point.

I've been told multiple times by multiple members here that my regular use of trail braking should be left on the track. They really need to read and heed the above.
Well, someone should, anyway. He's not talking about trail braking. (See what he thinks of trail braking on the street further down.) He's talking about braking after you're already in a corner:

Quote:
I would change this to: The best thing to do before taking a corner is to scan with your eyes, use your brakes until you’re happy with your speed and direction, sneak open your throttle to maintain your chosen speed and radius, don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.
And then, if something sneaks up on you, you can brake. (See above) He hammers on the point that you have to do it smoothly. The reason MSF and Oregon hate that is that n00bs- and by that I mean 99% of the riders I see- are barely smooth with planned events.

Which is consistent with his best-known article- The Pace, which he re-affirmed in 2009. Let me help:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Ienatsch, "The Pace"
You must have the maturity to limit your straightaway speeds to allow the group to stay in touch and the sense to realize that racetrack tactics such as late braking and full throttle runs to redline will alienate the public and police and possibly introduce you to the unforgiving laws of gravity.
[...]
Running in on the brakes is tantamount to running off the road, a confession that you're pushing too hard and not getting your entrance speed set early enough because you stayed on the gas too long
But since we're taking Nick's word as law, here's one for David (who decided to quote Nick) and the rest of the Lee Parks fans:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Ienatsch, "The Pace"
The street is not a racing environment, and it takes humility, self assurance and self control to keep it that way. The leader sets the pace and monitors his mirrors for signs of raggedness in the ranks that follow, such as tucking in on straights, crossing over the yellow line and hanging off the motorcycle in the corners.
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Old 07-09-2012, 05:43 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post

Well, someone should, anyway. He's not talking about trail braking. (See what he thinks of trail braking on the street further down.) He's talking about braking after you're already in a corner:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Ienatsch View Post
What component, when massaged skillfully, helps the bike turn? Brakes.
It it helps in the middle of the turn, it stands to reason it would help at the beginning too.

I guess we can agree to disagree then.
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Old 07-09-2012, 06:50 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan from Finland View Post
No doubt.



The reason why it was so violent is that you locked up the rear. If it's done the right way the rear never locks and keeps spinning.



Start with a cheap bike or... http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...0r/61nuekw.jpg



A cheap bike will not compensate for my lack of talent & minuscule testicular fortitude. Letting a 220kg bike swing around for a fraction of a second is more than enough in one lifetime.


I agree with the statements in the thread about maximising your safety to the limit of your ability. Precisely why I was so happy to get some advanced training & learn new skills. I have a better understanding of the dynamics & a better ability to use them. Continuous practice is making my braking better, straight lines & corners, wet & dry.
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Old 07-10-2012, 06:38 AM   #67
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I've only run off the road once and come close twice. All 3 events were on gravel roads. After reading the original post, I now realize I grabbed the brakes in the corner and the bike stood up and very little speed was scrubbed because there was almost no grip. Thanks for posting, I am going to practice the corner/brake drills you mention.
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Old 07-10-2012, 06:48 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
Well, someone should, anyway. He's not talking about trail braking. (See what he thinks of trail braking on the street further down.) He's talking about braking after you're already in a corner:
Late braking and Trail are not the same thing.

Late braking will involve trail braking, but trail braking does not have to involve late braking.

Late braking is used basically to sacrifice a good corner entry to get in order to pass someone, because it's slower the only way the pass sticks is if you take the line away from the person you overtook, otherwise you'll just get passed right back.

And like he said, that tactic is reserved for racing generally considered poor form even at track days.

Trail braking on the other hand is simply continuing to slow down after your turn in point on the way to the apex. If done perfectly you'll normally have the brakes "trailing off" all the way to the apex and then you'll be picking the throttle up a little bit at the very final bit of trailing off so you've got some control overlap.

Another tactic that Nick I talks about that is very effective and is related to trail braking is, is rear brake against throttle to smooth everything out and very precisely balance the bike. Need to go a little slower and tighter add just a touch more rear brake, need to go a little faster take a bit of rear brake away, one of the beautiful things about that is that it removes any jerk from taking up slack chain.

Downside is it's allot harder to do in a right hand corner at speed, which is why allot of racers stick on thumb brakes on the left grip for the rear brake.
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Old 07-10-2012, 08:03 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
But since we're taking Nick's word as law, here's one for David (who decided to quote Nick) and the rest of the Lee Parks fans:
No one said we were taking his word as law, it was posted for education and discussion and because it can help some (maybe you already know everything there is to know?

Also the following quote from the pace

Originally Posted by Nick Ienatsch, "The Pace"
The street is not a racing environment, and it takes humility, self assurance and self control to keep it that way. The leader sets the pace and monitors his mirrors for signs of raggedness in the ranks that follow, such as tucking in on straights, crossing over the yellow line and hanging off the motorcycle in the corners.

Hanging off is a technique to help you corner, I do not advocate doing it to a level of draging knee on the street, but moving your center line inside the bikes center line is beneficial and is still "hanging off"
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Old 07-10-2012, 08:07 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
I don't know what MSF teaches and don't care enough to dig out the answer- but we teach this in Oregon. Can you brake in a corner? Sure- but you have to be that much more careful, because it's much less likely you'll be able to fix a mistake.:
So you are of the opinion that your way is the only way and everyone but you is wrong and you are the best rider in the world and have nothing to learn from anyone else because you are so smart.

Nice attitude.
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Old 07-10-2012, 08:28 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
And then, if something sneaks up on you, you can brake. (See above) He hammers on the point that you have to do it smoothly. The reason MSF and Oregon hate that is that n00bs- and by that I mean 99% of the riders I see- are barely smooth with planned events.
"It has been shown over and over in various studies of the human condition that when the bar is set high, people tend to
find ways to make it over the bar even if not consciously thinking about it. When the bar is set low, the end result grows
progressively worse…Additionally, you still have the same percentage of people "failing" and the same number of people
complaining about how hard the standard is."
--Ken Good
http://www.strategosintl.com/pdfs/Wh...aining-Who.pdf
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Old 07-10-2012, 08:53 AM   #72
outlaws justice OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
And then, if something sneaks up on you, you can brake. (See above) He hammers on the point that you have to do it smoothly. The reason MSF and Oregon hate that is that n00bs- and by that I mean 99% of the riders I see- are barely smooth with planned events.
Question for you, when you are teaching riders, are you telling them to be smooth? Or are you teaching them the things they need to do to be smooth? Telling someone to be smooth solves nothing. You have to break down the things to help them learn to be smooth.

Teach them to be smooth, dont tell them to be smooth.
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:47 AM   #73
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My biggest problem is changing from a dirtbike mindset (40 years) to a road mindset. On the KTM, you come into a corner and lock the rear and slide to turn. Most offroad braking is last second and as hard as you can without falling. The other thing is upper body, I tend to try to keep my torso vertical and my head also. Good road technique is not so.

Since acquiring the DR 650, I have started to ride pavement more and want to be better at it. Thanks for this thread and it's helpful insights.
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Old 07-10-2012, 12:23 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donster View Post
Excellent read.

A traction question: Let's say that a given stretch of clean pavement has a "traction value" of 100 on a warm dry day. Is there a rule of thumb for how much that number would decline on the same road during a hard rain (that has washed off the residual fluids deposited by cars)?
I found THIS PAGE that seems to discuss traction.

Others can decide if it "more or less" accurate
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Old 07-10-2012, 12:29 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craneguy View Post
I found THIS PAGE that seems to discuss traction.

Others can decide if it "more or less" accurate

That's very simplified but somewhat accurate.

IMHO it doesn't matter what the "change" should be/could be. It matters what it IS. The only way to get a feel for what it actually is, is to ride until you find the limits of traction. Which unlike what many people think isn't nearly as bad as it sounds as long as you approach it gradually.

or like I said above, lock the rear in a straight line on a bunch of different roads and start getting a feel for that traction.
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