ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-02-2012, 11:49 AM   #121
Pantah
Red Sox Nation
 
Pantah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: India Wharf
Oddometer: 10,081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew011 View Post
@

What feels natural to me is to slowly release the brakes until I can see the exit, and than slowly roll on the throttle. I can not explain why, it is just what my feeling tells me, and I am comfortable that way. I think that everyone should ride the way they feel secure. Maybe it is better to have "wrong" technique that we feel comfortable using, than to force ourselves to use the "proper" technique that makes us insecure and nervous. Of course, I will consider any advice and try it, always hoping to find a better way.

p.s.
I don't know what is anti-squat effect of chain torque, sorry. If it's not too much offtopic, I would like to know something about that. Thanks.
What feels natural to you is generally how I ride. Trail brake till I see the exit; release brake; and slowly pick up the throttle as I stand the bike up past the apex.
__________________
Straight ahead and faster -Bo Weaver 1970
"There I was..." -Griffin Niner Three Hotel
"One day closer to a parade..." Jonny Gomes, spring training 2013
Pantah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 12:00 PM   #122
Andrew011
Tourist
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Oddometer: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciferMutt View Post
All it means is that when you open the throttle on a motorcycle (any motorcycle, shafties too) that BOTH the front and rear suspension actually LIFT UP -- the center line of the chain lies slightly below the swing arm at the front-- so when the chain goes under tension, it tries to pull the bottom of the swing arm closer to the drive sprocket...which extends the suspension and lifts the bike.
I understand now, thanks.
Andrew011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 01:16 PM   #123
TheWall
0 miles and counting
 
TheWall's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Somewhere in the cold, frozen north
Oddometer: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harvey Krumpet View Post
Hey, Teh Wall, just jumped in here & read "downhill tightening radius corner" after I spotted your moniker.

Last Saturday the missus & and I did a lovely run on a road which would cow The Dragon, numerous "oh shit" corners that feel more like tightening spirals over very steep coastal terrain.
It was her first big run & what she has learned from "the balls" made it an ecstatic ride rather than a terrifying one.
1500 ks total distanced traveled by her on a bike since she started learning & she has the ability to lean further through a corner using the front, rear or both brakes as required balanced against the throttle.

Er, sorry for butting in but I just wanted to push the fact that practice makes perfect. Oh, & give my girlfriend a plug. I'm soooooo proud of her!
Right on! Good to see you over here :) Wish I had spent some time on "the balls" before I ran across that corner last year -- I'm certain it would have made a difference.

Also, I meant to post this in my earlier reply to crofrog: in gymkhana, you brake front *AND* rear as well...well, some people do, but I haven't gotten there yet. I'm still just doing the poor-man's T.C. thing, so far :) But you were correct to point out that I was specifically addressing rear brakes while O.P. was talking about using the front brake, and I appreciated you clearing that up.
TheWall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 01:33 PM   #124
crofrog
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis Maryland
Oddometer: 1,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
To me neutral throttle means the throttle is open enough to maintain desired speed through the apex but not accelerating. Maybe we are all saying the same thing. 'On the gas' suggests acceleration, no?

I think we're saying the same thing. I was just trying to clarify that neutral is on the gas. We both do the same thing in a corner.
crofrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 01:47 PM   #125
crofrog
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis Maryland
Oddometer: 1,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew011 View Post
I don't like being on a throttle if a turn is slippery, mainly because it is very, very hard for me to quickly maneuver/brake if something happens in the traffic. If I have to release the throttle, the bike will jerk forward, loading the front tire instantly, and I am not comfortable with that. So, when the corner is slippery I slow down and take it easy.
Ok, so now we're getting into the "advanced" stuff

Being at neutral throttle (aka not accelerating or slowing) or even slightly cracked on, in a slippery corner means that if you find the limits of traction at one. It will be with the back. Sliding the back around is allot easier, less scary, and more fun than pushing the front. It is possible to push the front a bit, but it's walking a tight rope. The rear tire if it breaks traction is very easy to control.

Now, as to "If I have to release the throttle, the bike will jerk forward, loading the front tire instantly." This is a rider smoothness issue. You need to shut the throttle more slowly, and overlap your control inputs. In slippery corners using the above technique I'll often be dragging the rear brake against the throttle. If the back tire starts to spin up add a little rear brake, if you need to start slowing down add some rear brake against the throttle and then smoothly close the throttle while coming into the front brake.

Quote:
What feels natural to me is to slowly release the brakes until I can see the exit, and than slowly roll on the throttle. I can not explain why, it is just what my feeling tells me, and I am comfortable that way. I think that everyone should ride the way they feel secure. Maybe it is better to have "wrong" technique that we feel comfortable using, than to force ourselves to use the "proper" technique that makes us insecure and nervous. Of course, I will consider any advice and try it, always hoping to find a better way.
That isn't wrong and is very much what I do when riding fast, but it shouldn't be the only way you know how to ride. Experiment with getting onto the gas earlier and play with no brake riding in the twisties where you just try to maintain a constant speed through the corners and straights and never touch the brake lever. I think you'd learn allot from it.

I know you're saying you aren't trying to go fast but I see allot of riders who use the brakes as almost a safety blanket. They're scared to be on the gas or to use lean angle so they're always on the brakes.
crofrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 01:51 PM   #126
crofrog
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis Maryland
Oddometer: 1,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWall View Post
Also, I meant to post this in my earlier reply to crofrog: in gymkhana, you brake front *AND* rear as well...well, some people do, but I haven't gotten there yet. I'm still just doing the poor-man's T.C. thing, so far :) But you were correct to point out that I was specifically addressing rear brakes while O.P. was talking about using the front brake, and I appreciated you clearing that up.
Watch the front brake against the throttle. It's very easy to lock the front if there's any acceleration forces coming out of the rear tire.

It's easy to test and will teach you what a front wheel lock up feels like.

Go out and start applying the front brake and then add throttle to maintain the same speed keeping doing both until the wheel locks. It will happen _much_ sooner than you thought it would because the acceleration from the rear wheel is preventing any weight transfer to the front tire.
crofrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 02:44 PM   #127
Barry
Just Beastly
 
Barry's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Oddometer: 7,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
Word, although a little point of contention. Unless you've got a slipper clutch or are riding a 2 stroke or have your idle turned up a bit neutral does have the throttle sneaked open just a bit to




For the beginning rider it can likely be a tire trust issue, but lean angle limits are what they, but outside of that. The name of the gaming in track riding for sure and hopefully street riding for many. Is accurately hitting your line +/- a few inches of your intended apex because that will build the consistency and speed. Trail braking makes that _much_ easier.

I will say though, once you've come off the brakes stay on the throttle the problem with new riders is they jump back and forth between them. It's possible to do it and do it smoothly but it's always going to cost you laptime.
Agree...

I believe one of the reasons we have such heated debates in this forum is that I tend to make statements that are not qualified by "if you are a noob, do A and if you are an expert racer do B". The statements I make are independant of the rider's skill level *generally*. Trail braking is good. Whether a particular ride can employ that technique is another matter...

So many argue sound principles of high performance riding, appropriate for street or track, because of the context of the rider's skills. Or lack of... Rather than making statements that are simply true.

Barry
__________________
Tail of the Dragon at Deal's Gap... Avoid it now, do a trackday.

Do not do business with Myrtle West Cycle... Not a reputable vendor by a long shot.
Barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 04:06 PM   #128
Andrew011
Tourist
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Oddometer: 33
@ crofrog

I crashed several times fooling on a cross track with street tires (small supermoto), and found out how it feels to loose the front. Scary, it finishes in a split second. It absolutely makes sense what you said about cornering on a slippery surface and preference of loosing the rear than the front, and I agree with that.

Other vehicles and traffic situations can force me to react suddenly and unwillingly, which is riskier on a slippery surface. I am not aware of any technique for quick reactions and escape maneuvers on that kind surface apart from slowing down before something happens.

I wonder what kind of magic this guy uses. :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V9GVXydp3c


Quote:
Now, as to "If I have to release the throttle, the bike will jerk forward, loading the front tire instantly." This is a rider smoothness issue. You need to shut the throttle more slowly, and overlap your control inputs.
Speaking about the situations in traffic - it is often not possible for me to shut the throttle slowly when something happens instantly on the road, be it other cars, animals, bumps, sand or any kind of surprise. In that situation, I can not shut the throttle both "quickly and gently" enough to avoid pogoing the bike. I am not that good, I have to use the brakes.

Quote:
In slippery corners using the above technique I'll often be dragging the rear brake against the throttle. If the back tire starts to spin up add a little rear brake, if you need to start slowing down add some rear brake against the throttle and then smoothly close the throttle while coming into the front brake.
This technique sounds very logical, I will try it, thanks.

Quote:
That isn't wrong and is very much what I do when riding fast, but it shouldn't be the only way you know how to ride. Experiment with getting onto the gas earlier and play with no brake riding in the twisties where you just try to maintain a constant speed through the corners and straights and never touch the brake lever. I think you'd learn allot from it.
I agree that there should not be only one way to ride. Depends on the visibility of the road, amount of traffic, kind of surface, and the mood at the moment. I sometimes like to ride without using the brakes, just by planning the throttle and speed ahead. Less wear on the parts, also? However, I have to admit that I can not maintain the constant speed on the road I am not familiar with.
Andrew011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 06:03 PM   #129
crofrog
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis Maryland
Oddometer: 1,455
[QUOTE=Andrew011;19957120]
Quote:
Other vehicles and traffic situations can force me to react suddenly and unwillingly, which is riskier on a slippery surface. I am not aware of any technique for quick reactions and escape maneuvers on that kind surface apart from slowing down before something happens.
Tire trust and slower speeds. Allot of times the way out on a motorcycle isn't slowing down.


Quote:
I wonder what kind of magic this guy uses. :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V9GVXydp3c
Very impressive riding

Note how high in his stroke his forks stay. He's staying on the throttle allot and his control inputs are very smooth for the most part and you can see him managing little front and rear slides the entire time.

The other thing is rain race tires have truely amazing grip in the rain.



Quote:
Speaking about the situations in traffic - it is often not possible for me to shut the throttle slowly when something happens instantly on the road, be it other cars, animals, bumps, sand or any kind of surprise. In that situation, I can not shut the throttle both "quickly and gently" enough to avoid pogoing the bike. I am not that good, I have to use the brakes.
That's where control overlap comes into play. You need to apply the brakes (both of them) while rolling the throttle off. That way the forks go down into the stroke and stay there. If you close the throttle from accelerating the forks go from being extended to compressed and then back up.
crofrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 01:08 AM   #130
Harvey Krumpet
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Shaky Isles
Oddometer: 877
[QUOTE=crofrog;19957896]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew011 View Post



Very impressive riding

Note how high in his stroke his forks stay. He's staying on the throttle allot and his control inputs are very smooth for the most part and you can see him managing little front and rear slides the entire time.

The other thing is rain race tires have truely amazing grip in the rain.




.
He's on road tires. He has done a lot of practice in a car park somewhere, probably alone.

I forced myself to practice "correct braking technique" in the rain awhile ago, and GP8's, in a car park etc... I have mis-matched dual purpose tires on a heavy bike. They have huge grip if I ride well. In an emergency stop I would say their is about 20% difference between wet & dry. Astonishing! I am just trying to advance myself, though. Braking & turning the bike correctly will have the rear wheel stepping out of line first, you have to use the throttle even if your still braking, the rear brake, in the corner, to keep the bike balanced.
S'cuse my language, bastard of a thing to get good at...!!!

That guy on the Prilla is so smooth because he is balancing the throttle & brakes simultaneously to move the loading on the tires front to back as required which dictates his rate of turn.

Yeah, it is magic, but attainable if you want it. No race track required.
Harvey Krumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 08:22 AM   #131
ibafran
villagidiot
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: chicagoland
Oddometer: 1,285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donster View Post
Excellent read.

A traction question: Let's say that a given stretch of clean pavement has a "traction value" of 100 on a warm dry day. Is there a rule of thumb for how much that number would decline on the same road during a hard rain (that has washed off the residual fluids deposited by cars)?
Long ago, I read that the rule of thumb was that the traction would be reduced to about that of a gravel road (50%?). Been using that ever since and it seems to be about right. That said:

If one drives a cage on a gravel road and lose a little traction in the turns creating a slide, recovering from the slide is more/less easy and fun. Wahoo. Doing the same thing on a bike on wet pavement is considerably more problematic. Fire roading a bike in the wet is not so very different than doing it in the dry as the sliding is pretty consistant. It is dang difficult to recover/maintain wet pavement slides with that kind of gravel road consistancy. Ergo, I am always in awe of that racer on youtube slithering around a GP track in the wet.

Not only that. But let's say that a wet tar snake initiates the slide. There is no good reason to expect the wet pavement beyond the tar snake to have enough traction to overcome the sudden loading of a sliding tire like it would in the dry. A wet tire may be be hooked up surprisingly well due to its smooth loading. But when it lets go, it has to slow down a whole lot to get hooked up again and start recieving/rebuilding its previous speed load. Ergo, in the wet, I may be taking corners marked 30mph at 25mph because I can't recover a 30mph slide nearly as well as a 25mph slide.

Recently, in Malaysia, a local 18yr old MotoGP2 racer in his second race was leading in the wet. The experienced racers were waiting for him to fall as they slowed due to conditions/risk analysis. The kid was good and didn't fall. Finally, in the closing laps, the experienced riders had to pass him. The kid finished 4-5th. Watching the racing in the wet always facinates me. Some racers can get a knee down, some can't.
__________________
"beware the grease mud. for therein lies the skid demon."-memory from an old Honda safety pamphlet
ibafran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 12:34 PM   #132
TheWall
0 miles and counting
 
TheWall's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Somewhere in the cold, frozen north
Oddometer: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibafran View Post
If one drives a cage on a gravel road and lose a little traction in the turns creating a slide, recovering from the slide is more/less easy and fun. Wahoo. Doing the same thing on a bike on wet pavement is considerably more problematic.
That depends upon a number of factors. Did the front tire slide out, or the rear? If it's the rear, it's not necessarily a big deal. Been there, done that many, many times. I've slipped the back end under acceleration in the rain, on loose gravel on a paved road, on gravel roads, etc. If you are trail braking with the rear brake, just apply a little more brake and/or reduce throttle a little (smoothly!!!), and IME, it will recover with very little fuss. This is in the dry, but here is a video of me screwing up during a parking lot practice session as an example. If you've got much dirt experience, this should be even less of an issue for you because you should be used to having the back end hang out. If not, get out in the dirt and practice it! It's fun...eventually

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibafran View Post
Not only that. But let's say that a wet tar snake initiates the slide. There is no good reason to expect the wet pavement beyond the tar snake to have enough traction to overcome the sudden loading of a sliding tire like it would in the dry. A wet tire may be be hooked up surprisingly well due to its smooth loading. But when it lets go, it has to slow down a whole lot to get hooked up again and start recieving/rebuilding its previous speed load. Ergo, in the wet, I may be taking corners marked 30mph at 25mph because I can't recover a 30mph slide nearly as well as a 25mph slide.
To some extent, that is a valid point. In high school physics, I learned that "the coefficient of static friction is much greater than the coefficient of dynamic friction" -- that is, things are a lot more slipperier once they start sliding than they are while they are still hooked up. So, yes, there is some truth that once a tire starts sliding, it is reasonable to assume that it will continue sliding...unless you do something to change one of the variables in the equation. But that's the catch: you have the ability to control at least THREE of those variables: throttle position, brake pressure and lean angle. If you apply brake and/or reduce throttle so that there is less torque (force) between the tire and the road surface, then there is *every* reason to expect the tire to hook back up. I'm no superman, and I'm certainly no MotoGP racer. I'm just an average guy, but while I've dropped my bike a couple of times, I have yet to drop it due to sliding in the rain (and, for the record, I fully intend to keep it that way!)
TheWall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 01:10 PM   #133
Waco
Renegade Sickle Hound
 
Waco's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Waco, Texas
Oddometer: 14,971
Braking before corner or during: pick the one that feels right to you and practice it. The difference in effectiveness is probably insignificant on the street.
__________________
Support the AMA.
Waco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 08:56 PM   #134
FlySniper
Bleh...
 
FlySniper's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Here
Oddometer: 1,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post
Nick is correct on every point.

I've been told multiple times by multiple members here that my regular use of trail braking should be left on the track. They really need to read and heed the above.


That little bit of advice helped me greatly on the DR650 and it was a natural carryover when I got the Ninja 500. I can't imagine NOT doing it now.

When you told me to use the front brake in a turn, in the dirt, I thought you were nuts.... till I tried it.....
__________________
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar.

"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
FlySniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2012, 12:22 AM   #135
Harvey Krumpet
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Shaky Isles
Oddometer: 877
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWall View Post
I'm no superman, and I'm certainly no MotoGP racer. I'm just an average guy, but while I've dropped my bike a couple of times, I have yet to drop it due to sliding in the rain (and, for the record, I fully intend to keep it that way!)

Pussy.....
Harvey Krumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 11:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014