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Old 08-11-2012, 03:10 AM   #31
Storm Shadow OP
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i would have thought the wheel would have got a bend, but their strait, its just the engine mount, the side stand broke the bolt, not the case which we welded the bolt back together but probably need a new one., i think another person had the issue of the side stand splutting the case.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:17 PM   #32
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Well looks like he is gona buy it for cash

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Old 08-16-2012, 12:04 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
Seriously, we are talking about a motorcycle [brand] that uses the rear of the engine case to attach the swingarm. Can anyone seriously think this kind of mass centralization,,,,, perfect for race track duty,,,,has any place on a street bike? Just imagine the stresses on the engine block? Especially around the rear engine mounts to the frame, and between the rear engine mounts and the swingarm pivot. Inexcusable.

There are more bikes than just Ducati that uses the rear of the engine to mount the swingarm.

And as someone else mentioned, not going into space, their just toys.

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Old 08-16-2012, 04:21 AM   #34
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well now he has both, he brought my cbr600f4i instead of a swap,
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:51 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by corndog67 View Post
There are more bikes than just Ducati that uses the rear of the engine to mount the swingarm.

And as someone else mentioned, not going into space, their just toys.

Sent from my computer at work when I'm supposed to be working. Not using Tapatio.

Agreed, just toys. So,,,,are you defending this engineering shortfall because others have done it as well?
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:56 AM   #36
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Agreed, just toys. So,,,,are you defending this engineering shortfall because others have done it as well?
What makes it an engineering shortfall if it works well? Why would someone (other manufacturers too) keep repeating the idea if there were major problems with it?

By the way, I'm just a lowly machinist, I don't make the decisions, I just make the parts. And in 43 or 44 bikes that I've owned, never had a problem with it, and I beat my shit up unmercifully.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:26 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by corndog67 View Post
What makes it an engineering shortfall if it works well? Why would someone (other manufacturers too) keep repeating the idea if there were major problems with it?

By the way, I'm just a lowly machinist, I don't make the decisions, I just make the parts. And in 43 or 44 bikes that I've owned, never had a problem with it, and I beat my shit up unmercifully.

Just saying, yes, the design is clearly superior for the race track,,,,,but as a touring/sport touring application, this is an under engineered system. I've seen too many ST2, ST4, ST3 swingarm bearing and engine case cracking situations to be convinced otherwise. In fact, every ST2 I've ever seen has issues, and that's 5 of them.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:01 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Storm Shadow View Post
i would have thought the wheel would have got a bend, but their strait, its just the engine mount, the side stand broke the bolt, not the case which we welded the bolt back together but probably need a new one., i think another person had the issue of the side stand splutting the case.
That is a big issue with the KTM 950/990. Seems rare with other brands
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:08 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
Just saying, yes, the design is clearly superior for the race track,,,,,but as a touring/sport touring application, this is an under engineered system. I've seen too many ST2, ST4, ST3 swingarm bearing and engine case cracking situations to be convinced otherwise. In fact, every ST2 I've ever seen has issues, and that's 5 of them.
I have my eye on a ST4S - if I move ahead, I'll definitely check out that mount for cracking. In fact, I think that would stress me out everytime I hit a large bump (OCD engineer), so it may not be the bike for me.
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:26 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
Seriously, we are talking about a motorcycle [brand] that uses the rear of the engine case to attach the swingarm. Can anyone seriously think this kind of mass centralization,,,,, perfect for race track duty,,,,has any place on a street bike? Just imagine the stresses on the engine block? Especially around the rear engine mounts to the frame, and between the rear engine mounts and the swingarm pivot. Inexcusable.
I say B.S. It's a manufacturing technique that's being used more and more.
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:44 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
Seriously, we are talking about a motorcycle [brand] that uses the rear of the engine case to attach the swingarm. Can anyone seriously think this kind of mass centralization,,,,, perfect for race track duty,,,,has any place on a street bike? Just imagine the stresses on the engine block? Especially around the rear engine mounts to the frame, and between the rear engine mounts and the swingarm pivot. Inexcusable.
Honda did it too, VFR800, CBR 929/954 and SuperHawk:



It can be made to work very well.

Quote:
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It's a well known problem on these bikes. A big hit on the rear suspension causes the shock to break the upper shock mount, which is the engine case. It happens to ST's a lot when ridden two up.

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Yes, known to happen:

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/40-sport...ine-mount.html
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:46 AM   #42
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I say B.S. It's a manufacturing technique that's being used more and more.
Fine, call it BS. Go for it. I personally know of 3 guys who have had handling issues on their ST2's, only to find the engine case material had given way enough to the point that the swingarm bearings had become loose within the cases, and,,,,new bearings had to be installed with use of JB weld [no, loctite bearing retainer could not fill it up enough] to retain the bearings, and the bikes were flogged. The ST2 I was on 2 yrs ago on South Island New Zealand suffered no symptoms of impending disaster, and no physical abuse when at 60mph in top gear on a straight flat road the case gave way on the right side, a clear 1/8" crack from the right swingarm case boss to the rear engine frame bolt boss.
I'm not here to argue yes or no, I'm just saying any potential owners should be aware of this long term and Ducati ignored issue. ST2's/ST4's are as cheap as chicken soup for a reason.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:34 PM   #43
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I've got an S4. I beat the crap out of it. It has an Ohlins on the rear, and I'm coming on 30,000 miles, not a lot. I know a couple of ST3 and 4 owners, higher mileage bikes than mine, and none has had any issues with rear mounts/swingarm mounts, going away. But, I don't carry a passenger, or luggage on my S4, I just beat on it by my own self.

What is your engineering background? Have you ever owned one yourself? And had issues with it? You seem pretty convinced that it's a design flaw, yet most manufacturers are using the design on more than one of their bikes.

Oh, one other thing. Using JB weld is a really hack thing to do. You don't glue bearings into their bores, if it's that loose, they should take it apart, and either weld it up or sleeve it. In fact, if the bearings have gone away to the point of trashing the bearing bores, that indicates a lack of maintenance. They should license who they sell that stuff to, I've fixed more stuff that was goobered/fucked up with JB Weld, than you can shake a welding rod at. But that is just my personal experience.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:35 PM   #44
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So maybe there's a problem with the castings on the Duc ST models.

But you can't argue against the fact that not only Ducati, but other manufacturers (Honda, Triumph come to mind) have employed the technology as well with success.

Let's face it; the era of the hoop frame is over. Engines will continue to be employed as stressed members, and motorcycle design will continue to evolve towards such designs.

Or you could buy yourself something that doesn't use it. It's your choice.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:43 PM   #45
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They should license who they sell that stuff to, I've fixed more stuff that was goobered/fucked up with JB Weld, than you can shake a welding rod at. But that is just my personal experience.
I - er - 'made' a plain bearing with the stuff in the worn cylinder head of an XL185S once...

IMO Ducati's swingarm mount is clearly under-engineered for the road. That is to say, the concept of locating the swingarm pivot bearing in the engine cases is clearly sound, but Ducati don't make theirs resistant enough to the various problems that might arise in normal road usage. Which is what the ST4 is sold for.
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