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Old 08-05-2012, 01:57 PM   #1
Gustavo.Ramos OP
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Puke coolant issue...oil??

My 06 is giving me a hard time.

Yesterday i went change the engine oil, replace air filter and spark plugs.

Previously i had noticed that sometimes she would idle only at 2k to 2,5k rpms... couldn't find the exact cause of this...

Today took it for a wash and do the "15 minute idle not touching anything" procedure to let her reset her thoughts..

No matter what, the idle still kept at 2,5k revs which may be an el cheapo cruise control, but not very good. Time to check the TPS....?

At the garage i noticed the coolant reservoir was dark and a bit too full. when removed the coolant cap, put one finger in and... sludge! F....k..., removed the radiator cap and a bit sludgy too, the coolant had a brownish color.

I'd say theres a leak somewhere, but consider this:

Drained exactly 3 liters of oil. Oil color was black! No traces of milky stuff
Oil filter was clean without any weaves (does this sound right!?)
Bike is 50k kms, water pump shaft and seal was replaced 20k kms ago.
Dunno when was last coolant flush done
Spark plugs were good. Brownish tan, no soot, no wet residues.
While doing the 15 minute procedure in the outside, temperature was mild 25º, little wind, it never went above 4 bars, and i could only hear the fan going on after 14 minuts of idling still.

Some pics:

Oil filter:



Coolant reservoir:



Coolant in the overflow reservoir:




Looking closely it seems the liquid is not mixed and slowly separating by gravity:



I'm pretty headed to oil mixing with coolant scenario but i find strange not the other way around.

Coolant does not show viscosity, could it be the coolant loosing it's properties and degrading?

What do your experience tell?
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Old 08-05-2012, 02:23 PM   #2
Uller
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Same symptoms....

I have the same signs (06' 950 Adv S w/ 34,000 mi. ) only mine started to overflow the overflow resivor too. I also found small drops of coolant on the base of the backside of the rear cylinder.

Take a look at the one way valve in your breather hose and see if there is any emulisified oil in it. Mine was so full that it didn't work and I had about two teaspoons of water sitting inside the valve on the airbox side when I took it off.

If so, you can take the left engine cover off and see that there is also emulsified oil in your balancer shaft.

From everything I could find and a few PMs I am replacing base and head gaskets. Its the oil pressure being greater than coolant pressure and sending oil into the coolant system through a bad base gasket. It gets worse at higher RPMs as pressures increase.

My base and head gaskets show up on Tuesday and I just built a 1'-8" Table, out of 4x4 Pallets I got free from work, for the bike to make removal of the engine easier (I'm too cheap to buy a Harbor Freight Motorcycle Stand )








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Old 08-05-2012, 03:21 PM   #3
Georgios
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I like the LC8 engine, but this is really a constructors flaw. Every V2 I know has two separate seals, each for coolant and oil. Between these seals is a chamber with a drain hole.

This way, it is impossible that the two liquids will mix up. KTM should have done better.

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Old 08-05-2012, 03:38 PM   #4
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Went to the garage for some fresh pics and look at the breather valve at the top of the airbox. Was pretty sure it was ok, and it confirmed. No blockage, no signs of moisture or milky stuff. The stuff seen on the tube does not come out. also tested the valve, by blowing and sucking air, it works perfectly only one way without restrictions. Removed the oil reservoir dipstick and could hear the air being sucked out.



the connector at the airbox cover:



also looked at the drained coolant from the reservoir, it is still splitting itself:



What isn't exactly clear for me is if oil mixes with water, does it stay mixed or eventually they split due to different density?

Your comment that greater oil pressure than coolant pressure making the oil going only one way makes sense, but shouldn't that happen too with the water pump seal when it goes south?
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:24 PM   #5
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I could totally be incorrect here as I'm kinda new to this beast, however, I believe that the waterpump is a different issue in that it's pressurized by the pump wheel and the crankcase on the other side is a negative pressure. This causes the water to want to be drawn into the oil system at this location rather than the cooling system like the head gasket.

I have already gone into my water pump and it definitely wasn't my issue.....

Maybe I didn't notice my problem as quick as you and the emulsion worked its way up farther in my system. I didn't have any emulsion in the air box or on the air box side of the valve, just behind it. I also didn't have any emulsified oil in my clutch cover, waterpump cover, no wavy pleats in my oil filter, no milky oil in the oil system. Only in the locations of the pics above (so far) and the down side of the valve.

I believe that other possible culprits that cause oil pressure into the cooling system besides the gaskets would be a crack in the wall of the cylinder.

I've cleaned the cooling system, crankcase vent, engine cover, retightened head bolts per manual, and cleaned the overflow tank. Same symptom returned.....

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Old 08-05-2012, 04:31 PM   #6
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Water should settle out and go to the bottom leaving oil on top. I would run clean water (and maybe a cleaner) through just to see that the last owner didn't use dam or pond water. Just saying it can't hurt anything and might save an unnecessary pulldown
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:46 PM   #7
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Uller,

When you remove the left engine cover, does it contain oil that i should be aware before doing a mess in my garage?
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavo.Ramos View Post
Uller,

When you remove the left engine cover, does it contain oil that i should be aware before doing a mess in my garage?
I'm sorry but, I'm not really sure. I had already drained all my oil prior to and didn't even have to think about it. When I did pull the cover there was a slight amount of residual oil in there. I would guess at least a little will drain out.

If you do go in there you might want to get some of the green locktite 648 before hand and do the Stator Bolt TSB while you are in there. I had three that were loose. ....

http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...t=stator+bolts
http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...t=stator+bolts

I also changed my balancer shaft seal and I believe that they recommend a new cover gasket.
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Old 08-05-2012, 05:10 PM   #9
wpbarlow
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My owned-since-new 34,000 mile 2006 950SM has the same issue.

Initial question was here with just a few inconclusive comments.

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=806797

With mine, it overheated on the way home from a ride. It would climb through 5 bars, the fan would go on and it just went to 6 and then 7 bars if I let it. No hint of anything until it just started happening. Fortunately, it started acting up about 12 miles from home, so I was able to ride about a mile or two, turn it off for 10 minutes, ride another 1-2 miles, etc.. Again, no hint of anything, and the oil pressure light was not going on.

Subsequent inspection showed the water pump failed hard. The pump has been replaced but the bike is still overheating and getting oil in the water, but there's no white exhaust smoke. The shop is thinking head gaskets, but I suggested checking with KTM tech support, which they said they'd do tomorrow.

I'll post whatever happens.

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Old 08-06-2012, 03:23 AM   #10
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Walter,

Mine does not over heat, i've hardly seen 5 bars, hear the fan going on a handfull of times. Yesterday she stood for 15 minutes idling and only at 14 the fan went on for something like 30 seconds and then went off.

I'm going to flush the whole system several times, check left side cover, removed clutch cover, check water pump.
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:26 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavo.Ramos View Post
Walter,

Mine does not over heat, i've hardly seen 5 bars, hear the fan going on a handfull of times. Yesterday she stood for 15 minutes idling and only at 14 the fan went on for something like 30 seconds and then went off.

I'm going to flush the whole system several times, check left side cover, removed clutch cover, check water pump.
From everything you say sounds to me as head gasket problem.

It also seams as oil in the cooling system, but not Water pump related.

If you take the left side cover it will spill oil, unless you managed to lay the bike on it's right side which will make things easier.

If you end up changing the head gaskets make sure that the studs you have in there are the last ones that are stronger.

As some else already mentioned, you might do a cooling system cleanup (distilled water and vinegar 50/50 works fine for flushing the system and maybe a radiator cleaner) that way you'll end up with a clean system and see if the coolant gets any oil. If so, taking the heads out might be in order.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:48 PM   #12
Gustavo.Ramos OP
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Started the bike tonight and let her warm up without the radiator cap. Volume went down, then went up. Accelerated a few times and saw bubbles coming out. I havent flushed the coolant for more than one year, so i don't think there were any trapped bubbles.

From my understanding these bubbles might be exhaust gas passing through a blow head gasket...


If so, we're heading for a poll: Which one, front or rear cylinder? I may end up doing both, but i'd like to know what is the most common to fail.

There goes my summer bike trip....
:(
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavo.Ramos View Post
From my understanding these bubbles might be exhaust gas passing through a blow head gasket...

If so, we're heading for a poll: Which one, front or rear cylinder? I may end up doing both, but i'd like to know what is the most common to fail.

There goes my summer bike trip....
:(
Bubbles in the Radiator isn't a good thing......

My money is on the rear.

I've known about mine before I made summer trip plans so, I didn't have to go through that one but, I feel for you. It sucks having the 950 down. I ride mine every day.

I had just gotten done doing a major overhall. Painted all the plastic and tanks. Had the suspension done. Did a custom High Fender Kit. Put her back together after months of being down and the first day back rolling I get bubbles in the radiator. First Then Now

Since I got the 950 it has been more wrenching than
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:05 PM   #14
AdvGa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavo.Ramos View Post
... Removed the oil reservoir dipstick and could hear the air being sucked out.



the connector at the airbox cover:




...
Gustavo,
Sorry to hear about your problems... you could do this change to your Crankcase Venting to your Airbox to relieve some pressure in your system (works fine on mine) as seen below.




http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...23&postcount=6

This may also be a Failing Crankscase Seal:
http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=408017

Hope you get it fixed soon.
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavo.Ramos View Post
Started the bike tonight and let her warm up without the radiator cap. Volume went down, then went up. Accelerated a few times and saw bubbles coming out. I havent flushed the coolant for more than one year, so i don't think there were any trapped bubbles.

From my understanding these bubbles might be exhaust gas passing through a blow head gasket...


If so, we're heading for a poll: Which one, front or rear cylinder? I may end up doing both, but i'd like to know what is the most common to fail.

There goes my summer bike trip....
:(

technically, it isn't that hard to fix. I know is hard for you to get parts, but that might be the only draw back, my gf lives in spain, maybe i can get her to buy the parts and send them to you, or i can buy them in the states from a dealer i have and send them to you. Let me know what you want to do.
BTW: it seems weird for that year of a bike to be giving this kind of trouble, unless you overheated, did you?

oh! and i'm Gustavo too.

Good lucl
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