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Old 08-17-2012, 08:25 PM   #46
Albie
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Originally Posted by 9Dave View Post


Not hardly.

Is the "ruggedized phone" IPX7 certified? What's the temperature operating range? Vibration hardened?

Come back with a report in a year or two of how that phone did after being exposed to constant rain, sun, vibration etc.
Probably longer then the 3 POS 478's I went through in 2 years.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:28 PM   #47
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Who cares? It's a game. Blizzard doesn't have to pay licensing fees to a third party for each copy they sell. Garmin does.
You're the one whining because I used a $1200 piece of software as an example DUH.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:31 PM   #48
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You're the one whining because I used a $1200 piece of software as an example DUH.
Not whining; just saying games are optional, and maps are a lot more important so $75 on current maps is more of a bargain to me than $60 spent on "Diablo 3".
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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 08-18-2012, 05:00 AM   #49
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Probably longer then the 3 POS 478's I went through in 2 years.
My 376C has lasted for 6. Only problem has been a dead ROM battery. why your experience has been so bad.
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Old 08-18-2012, 05:39 PM   #50
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Eh? Garmin Reliability?

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My 376C has lasted for 6. Only problem has been a dead ROM battery. why your experience has been so bad.
I went through two 545s' in 2 1/2 years. When I asked their customer service if they had made changes with the new 546 that would make it more reliable (and worth spending another $1,000 on), the answer was . Then they asked if I had checked that there was power to the unit - yeah, we covered that when I explained having plugged one of their DFs into the same plug that the GPS had used and according to IT the voltage was fine. I was a huge Garmin fan but my confidence has faded. I am 'experimenting' with a Delorme PN-60 right now, can't say that I like it as well as my 60CSx but it sure is less hassle as far as maps are concerned.


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Old 08-19-2012, 12:01 AM   #51
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... It costs money to make maps. I don't begrudge a company mamking money on the maps. Fortunately so many customers use the maps (I think Gamin uses Navtech) that hte price is amortized over a larger client base reducing costs.

Google Earth doesnt do it for free and I would hate to see ads popping up on my GPS in the future as a result of "Free" maps...
Not true. Not only did I switch from Garmin to Android, I switched to Open Street Maps. Oh, I can hear the groans now... but, THAT is the future. Maps, no matter what the device, will be free, and they will be more accurate than anything any one company could ever supply, unless they too use OSM data, which they will. It is only a matter of time.

With a lot of effort, I now have my very own custom maps for the areas I like to ride in. These are far more accurate than anything Garmin has, or Google, or anyone else. Why? Because I wanted maps that didn't exist, so I made them. No, they certainly can't be called "free" because I paid for them with a lot of time. But, much of what's on these maps I can share with OSM - and OSM gets better, and better, and better. If you think something good requires corporate profits or advertising support, then you don't understand Open Source.

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... Nothing is really free anyway. If the maps is "free", you'll either be looking at ads on your GPS screen, or have popups telling you you're passing a sale at the furniture store you're riding past, or you'll pay for the maps in the cost of the hardware. The day they truly give stuff away for free is the day YOU will work 40 hours a week at your job without pay, because your customers or boss demand it.
Or... people are doing it and sharing the results for fun. Or... an organization needs maps for an area that don't exist, so they make them and then they share the results because this will hopefully get other people involved in keeping them current or making them even better. Or... government organizations that have spent enormous resources collecting data make this data public, and people like me grab that data and make it work, and share the results, for free.

Yes, right now, OSM is pretty good in urban environments, by far the best for most hiking/walking urban parks, but has some major holes with back-country roads where people like us tend to go. OSM relies on people uploading tracks... when you like to go places to get away from people, well, the data starts to get sparse. So, that makes us extra important. If you want better maps, upload your tracks to OSM. If there's no one in your area processing those tracks into the maps, then step up and do it yourself. Sooner or later, somebody will.

Like Wikipedia, Open Street Map data will become the definitive standard. It's only a matter of time. The more people that get fed up and start going "Garmin says *!$# U to customers!" the sooner it will be. All I can say is, if you feel that way then make the switch. If the maps in your area aren't good enough, then make them better. Yes, you can. The tools exist to do this and lots of people are using them. Once you start, the idea of using maps that you can't immediately fix when you find a mistake will just seem silly.

Garmin will be out of the map-making business fairly soon. They will live or die based on their hardware. You can already use OSM maps on Garmin devices, for free. Yes, really, really free. Free as in Free Beer and Free as in Free to do whatever the hell you want with them. No advertising, no corporate hucksters, just people working together... because it's fun.

Still not convinced... you need to check out the OSM data that's available for your area. If it's not good enough and you'd rather pay $75 than putting any effort into your community, well, all I can say is pay your money but remember to check back again next year. Things are changing fast. If you upload your tracks to OSM, they might even change faster.

David...

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Old 08-19-2012, 12:35 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FixerDave View Post
Like Wikipedia, Open Street Map data will become the definitive standard. It's only a matter of time. The more people that get fed up and start going "Garmin says *!$# U to customers!" the sooner it will be. All I can say is, if you feel that way then make the switch. If the maps in your area aren't good enough, then make them better. Yes, you can. The tools exist to do this and lots of people are using them. Once you start, the idea of using maps that you can't immediately fix when you find a mistake will just seem silly.
Exactly. I think it will happen pretty fast with all the gps and smartphones out there. I remember when people said Wikipedia was a joke but who wants to buy an encyclopedia now LOL No company can take on a simple but humongous task as broad as maps or information themselves better than a crowd (and make it affordable, or free..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FixerDave View Post
Garmin will be out of the map-making business fairly soon. They will live or die based on their hardware. You can already use OSM maps on Garmin devices, for free. Yes, really, really free. Free as in Free Beer and Free as in Free to do whatever the hell you want with them. No advertising, no corporate hucksters, just people working together... because it's fun.
I think Garmin will be out of business soon, or much smaller than before. How long before navigation is standard in vehicles and everyone has a smart phone. Who needs a GPS then? Far fewer people
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:16 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by FixerDave View Post
Like Wikipedia, Open Street Map data will become the definitive standard. It's only a matter of time. The more people that get fed up and start going "Garmin says *!$# U to customers!" the sooner it will be.
OSM has a place, but at this point it is not a replacement for commercial mapping. Whether it will become a replacement in the next 5 to 10 years is the question. The big advantage to commercial mapping is the overall quality (I know - there are some errors) and the integration between geographic areas.

Will it become a replacement for the mass market anytime soon? Doubt it. The ability to use a handheld device to route between NY and LA relies upon solid, gap free data for all the places in between. OSM relies upon having people fill in all the places in between, including places like BFE Kansas. Imagine trying to do a re-route in the middle of a trip and the unit gives you a "Sorry, I can't do that right now because no one contributed map data".
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:24 AM   #54
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...everyone has a smart phone. Who needs a GPS then? Far fewer people
I have an iPhone with lots of excellent gps programs on it, but you know where it is most of the time? In my pocket. Even if I plugged it in to charge while I was trying to use it, like I can in my car, it gets so hot that I can't put it back into my pocket when I stop using it. Perhaps the Otterbox case I have it in contributes to the heat, but I need that on it to make it "rugged".

And running the phone as a gps when it's not powered kills the battery far too fast for my liking.

Granted it looks very pretty there on the dash, but it's far more important to me as a communication device than a navigation device.
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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.

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Old 08-19-2012, 06:15 AM   #55
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Question hillmap

Have you guys reviewed www.hillmap.com ?
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:55 AM   #56
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OSM has a place, but at this point it is not a replacement for commercial mapping. Whether it will become a replacement in the next 5 to 10 years is the question. The big advantage to commercial mapping is the overall quality (I know - there are some errors) and the integration between geographic areas.

Will it become a replacement for the mass market anytime soon? Doubt it. The ability to use a handheld device to route between NY and LA relies upon solid, gap free data for all the places in between. OSM relies upon having people fill in all the places in between, including places like BFE Kansas. Imagine trying to do a re-route in the middle of a trip and the unit gives you a "Sorry, I can't do that right now because no one contributed map data".
Have you looked at the data recently? "BFE Kansas" doesn't come up in a search, Google or otherwise but a random comparison between Google and OSM shows that even out in the middle of rural Kansas, OSM has the edge. I don't have any Kansas-specific Garmin maps so I can't make the comparison there. Around here, all the paved roads are in OSM because our government released that data and it was imported. OSM falls down out in the bush... Garmin still has the edge, except where I ride. Where I ride, OSM has data that Garmin, Google, or any other corporation you want to name does not, unless they've started incorporating OSM data. How do I know this? I put it there. Oh, and if you're planning on using Garmin maps to do routing out in the bush around here... you better pack some survival gear. If you use OSM, at least you won't get routed over that bridge that washed out a decade ago... because I fixed the OSM data for that too.

My point to all this is to demonstrate what squawk77 said. Just on base principles, there is no way in hell that any corporation could ever compete with millions of people doing something for fun. Some things crowd-source well and when that happens, everything changes. Mapping is NOW crowd-sourced. The tools are there. Look at the data they have created in, what, 2004 -- 8 years. They are deliberately collecting data with one hand tied behind their back... they refuse to pay for any previously collected data. They are starting fresh. In 8 years they are already seriously competing with all the corporations that have been doing this from the start, buying data from each other that goes way back in history. 10 more years to put Garmin out of the mapping business? Not likely. Well, I expect there will still be people forking out money for Garmin maps a decade from now, but those maps, like nearly ALL maps, will be based on OSM data... and you will be able to get them for free if you want. Some people seem to want to pay though... good for Garmin I guess. I suppose there are people that still buy encyclopedias too.

David...
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:04 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
I have an iPhone with lots of excellent gps programs on it, but you know where it is most of the time? In my pocket.... Granted it looks very pretty there on the dash, but it's far more important to me as a communication device than a navigation device.
Agreed, but there are alternatives. I picked up a $100 Chinese Android tablet with a good GPS chip and mounted it on my bars, powered from the bike. It was not without issues, but I'm now very happy with it. I doubt I'll ever mount another Garmin GPS on my bike. No, I wouldn't mount an expensive smart phone either... but a cheap tablet, yes. I intend to buy a new one every year over the next while, as the technology is improving so fast. If the old one survives, it becomes a toy for my kid. If not, oh well.

On the other hand, I still have my Dakota 20 and fully intend to use it while hiking or kayaking. It's tough, it is very good on batteries, and those batteries can be easily replaced. It's a decent device that won't be replaced by a cheap tablet anytime soon - in specific applications. I just don't see a vehicle as one of those applications anymore.

David...
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:06 AM   #58
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. I suppose there are people that still buy encyclopedias too.
But it's not one or the other... It's better to have as many maps as you can and that's why I have multiple Garmin, OSM and Ibycus maps in my Montana with a shortcut to each.

Until Open Source maps have as much data in them as Garmin maps do, I'll be happy to download my Lifetime Updates.

Do OSM maps have DEM data?
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Want to know more about the Garmin Montana? See the Wisdom and FAQ Thread.
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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:21 AM   #59
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Agreed, but there are alternatives. I picked up a $100 Chinese Android tablet with a good GPS chip and mounted it on my bars, powered from the bike. It was not without issues, but I'm now very happy with it. I doubt I'll ever mount another Garmin GPS on my bike...
I would never waste money on a cheap Chinese tablet, let alone mount it on my bike.
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Want to know more about the Garmin Montana? See the Wisdom and FAQ Thread.
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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:35 AM   #60
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I would never waste money on a cheap Chinese tablet, let alone mount it on my bike.

Yeah, but I ride a KLR, so it's okay
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