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Old 09-27-2012, 02:48 PM   #136
klaviator
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Of course, low tech is no guarantee of reliability. I had two friends whose centerstands broke No electronics to fail there.

Of course, real men don't need crutches like centerstands......they just lean their bike against the nearest tree
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Old 09-27-2012, 03:07 PM   #137
hexnut
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Of course, low tech is no guarantee of reliability. I had two friends whose centerstands broke No electronics to fail there.

Of course, real men don't need crutches like centerstands......they just lean their bike against the nearest tree
Back in the day I don't remember our dirt bikes having any kind of stands. We leaned them on anything available.
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Old 09-27-2012, 03:18 PM   #138
Süsser Tod
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First of all, Jerry, your way is not the only way.

I own two, or three, computers on wheels, CBR 600RR, XT660R and SV1000S. The other day the XT660 started misfiring so badly I thought I wouldn't make it home, but she managed. I was able to test every single sensor and actuator without even needing a multimeter! In the end, it was a bad spark plug. It's easier to fix newer bikes than it is to fix old bikes. I seriously have nightmares of cleaning the carbs on my XJR1300... As much as I LOVE that bike, I rather have the self adjusting PGM-EFI on the 600RR.

If you can't be bothered to check a service manual to diagnose a new bike because you're dead set in your old ways...

You are just as old and obsolete as your old school toys.



Has anyone noticed that any given group, whether it be vintage enthusiasts, BMW enthusiasts, KTM enthusiasts, Italian bike enthusiasts or japanese bike enthusiasts think that every negative aspect, as seen by the others, of their chosen bike is "character/soul/spirit"?


As for me, a rider, I'll stay with bikes I can actually ride. I do enjoy turning wrenches, in my garage on my terms, not by the side of the road whenever the "soul" of the bike decides to strike.
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:53 PM   #139
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I think Jerry's way fits Jerry and that is all he is saying. He digs the old school stuff for his reasons and that makes it better for him.
We ride for fun. He doesn't trust electronics, so on a newer bike he would be not as happy.
Me, I can see and enjoy both sides. My sport bikes make me happy and so does the Ural even though they are very different rides.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:19 PM   #140
JerryH
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I think Jerry's way fits Jerry and that is all he is saying. He digs the old school stuff for his reasons and that makes it better for him.
We ride for fun. He doesn't trust electronics, so on a newer bike he would be not as happy.
Me, I can see and enjoy both sides. My sport bikes make me happy and so does the Ural even though they are very different rides.
Yep, you pretty much got it. I am a VINTAGE car and bike enthusiast. The new stuff does not have what I want. Reliability is not the only issue. I like mechanical things, not PC boards and microprocessors. I like to work on things. I like to be able to understand the things I work on. I like the looks of old vehicles, and the fact that they were made out of mostly metal, not plastic like today. I like my vehicles with some rough edges. Automakers are on a mission to make their vehicles completely silent inside, and the ride completely free of road feel. If the technology were available, they would have vehicles that drove themselves. That would be the end of the motor vehicle hobby. For me, the advent of excessive safety devices, emissions crap, and electronics meant the end of vehicles suitable for hobby purposes. So all I have left is old vehicles. Yes, they break down more often. But, when they do, they are almost always cheap and easy to fix, unlike new ones. And I do not see anyone wanting to restore todays vehicles. They will be scrapped and replaced with the latest thing. The whole concept of a disposable vehicle is blasphemy to a vehicle enthusiast.


Being a fleet services mechanic, I work on mostly new vehicles, and drive a lot of them. Yes, they will reliably move you from point A to point B. But again, to an enthusiast, there is a lot more to a vehicle than that. My old Bonneville and my friends old Porsche came about as close to perfect vehicles as I have experienced. Unfortunately, they are both now high dollar collectors items, and out of my price range. They did require a lot of owner involvement, which is the whole purpose of being a vehicle enthusiast in the first place.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:01 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Yep, you pretty much got it. I am a VINTAGE car and bike enthusiast. The new stuff does not have what I want. Reliability is not the only issue. I like mechanical things, not PC boards and microprocessors. I like to work on things. I like to be able to understand the things I work on. I like the looks of old vehicles, and the fact that they were made out of mostly metal, not plastic like today. I like my vehicles with some rough edges. Automakers are on a mission to make their vehicles completely silent inside, and the ride completely free of road feel. If the technology were available, they would have vehicles that drove themselves. That would be the end of the motor vehicle hobby. For me, the advent of excessive safety devices, emissions crap, and electronics meant the end of vehicles suitable for hobby purposes. So all I have left is old vehicles. Yes, they break down more often. But, when they do, they are almost always cheap and easy to fix, unlike new ones. And I do not see anyone wanting to restore todays vehicles. They will be scrapped and replaced with the latest thing. The whole concept of a disposable vehicle is blasphemy to a vehicle enthusiast.


Being a fleet services mechanic, I work on mostly new vehicles, and drive a lot of them. Yes, they will reliably move you from point A to point B. But again, to an enthusiast, there is a lot more to a vehicle than that. My old Bonneville and my friends old Porsche came about as close to perfect vehicles as I have experienced. Unfortunately, they are both now high dollar collectors items, and out of my price range. They did require a lot of owner involvement, which is the whole purpose of being a vehicle enthusiast in the first place.
Well said Jerry. Best statement you've made in this thread. No rebuttal from me on this one.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:25 PM   #142
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I'm trying to understand the appeal.

I get it; I can comprehend what a carburetor does. Or a magneto. That electronic stuff...scares me.

Even now.

But...getting back into bikes four years ago...I went through a lot of hardware trying to find what fit me. Just as I did find it, the back and hips started letting go, so my needs changed even as I was searching. Oh, well...but, anyway. I had for a short time an old Honda GL500...the old CX500-based Silver wing. Great bike...once it was warmed up.

In any weather cooler than a hot summer afternoon, getting it rolling was an exercise in patience and a time-consuming challenge. Oh, it would start right up...as long as it was warmer than 50 degrees. But then, it wouldn't LOAD until it got up to operating temperature. Meantime, the full choke it needed to start, would start to flood it out...but taking the choke off would make it stall. Had to e-e-ease off the choke, little by little...too much, it would stall, not enough, it would flood and stall anyway. Over ten minutes of that, before you could ride off...and even then, it would hiccup the first mile or so.

Compare that to ANY fuel-injected cycle today...turn it on, hit the starter and you're off. I have to remind myself to let it idle a few minutes to get things a little warmed up.

I remember my first ride...a Yamaha R5C. Twin coils....it was 13 years old in 1985 when I bought it; and the ignition was marginal. Weak yellow spark; and I had no book and no knowledge of Japanese two-stroke engines. First sign of rain, it would die and stay dead.

Today, again...the ignition system is something I never need touch. Or worry about....no fear of rain shorting anything out.

Bikes cost almost twice what they did back then, in adjusted dollars; but they're worth it. After all, I - and most people - own one to ride, not to repair.
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:16 PM   #143
John Bentall
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I'm trying to understand the appeal.
You won't, ever.

Jerry H (like all of us) has a certain attitude that is manifested to the outside world in his choice of motorcycles and automobiles. I celebrate his choice and his right to be left in peace. I, for one, will make no attempt whatsoever to try to change his mind, because he is intelligent enough to see the other point of view already.

This whole thread started with trying to suggest to Kitty what might be a retro bike that might also appeal to her, if she was concerned about reliability issues with a Royal Enfield. Surely we should continue in that vein, rather than trying to dissuade her (or anyone else) from having her preferred style of machine.
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:02 AM   #144
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Now is a great time to get deals on two wheels. I hope Kitty finds what she wants.
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Old 09-29-2012, 08:34 AM   #145
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Yep, you pretty much got it. I am a VINTAGE car and bike enthusiast. The new stuff does not have what I want. Reliability is not the only issue. I like mechanical things, not PC boards and microprocessors. I like to work on things. I like to be able to understand the things I work on. I like the looks of old vehicles, and the fact that they were made out of mostly metal, not plastic like today. I like my vehicles with some rough edges. Automakers are on a mission to make their vehicles completely silent inside, and the ride completely free of road feel. I

Amen.
Couldnt add anything.
I wouldnt pay even 5000 for any nu-tech motorcycle made today, but gladly would for an rz350 or rd400.

Yes, there really was a tangible spirit in the old steel that is just not there in nu-tech anime bikes.
Cant explain it to lots of people, but we get it, and nothing else will do.
Im scootering currently, but now that we are finally settled, my next motorcycle will only be a slow, archaic, old-tech machine
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:27 AM   #146
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Scale. Perhaps the more we measure the world to ever-more-intricate accuracies, the more we are taken farther away from a natural existence; The more our vehicles rely on micro-scale processes that require other devices to measure them, the less tangible the connection between man and machine. For sure, it's relative--on one level, there is nothing natural about a motorized vehicle, but . . .
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:33 AM   #147
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Now is a great time to get deals on two wheels. I hope Kitty finds what she wants.
Hard to say, she hasn't posted anything in over 3 weeks.
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:31 AM   #148
JerryH
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Scale. Perhaps the more we measure the world to ever-more-intricate accuracies, the more we are taken farther away from a natural existence; The more our vehicles rely on micro-scale processes that require other devices to measure them, the less tangible the connection between man and machine. For sure, it's relative--on one level, there is nothing natural about a motorized vehicle, but . . .
Mathematicians believe there is beauty and elegance in simplicity, and that long drawn out equations are "ugly" Occam's Razor states that something should not be more complex than it needs to be. I believe that as well. I like fundamental machines, based on MECHANICAL principals, and again, the simpler the better. An old motorcycle is all purely mechanical, other than for the ignition system, which, while being electrical, is NOT electronic. The whole motorcycle is simple enough for an elementary school student to understand completely. It is simple enough for any amateur mechanic to understand and work on. Only the most basic laws of physics are involved. And it works, and works very well.

Most of the problems people complain about with old motorcycles were due to poor quality, not poor design. That is especially true of bikes made in the '60s and '70s. '70s Japanese bikes were almost completely reliable, and did not have any "computer technology" at all. They were purely mechanical, thus they were "machines". Adding computer technology not only serves no purpose, other than for the EPA, but it completely destroys their mechanical purity. They are no longer "machines" Kind of like a CyBorg. Part human, part machine, part computer. It is not possible for me to form any kind of emotional bond with such an abomination.

A true machine does what it's operator makes it do. It does not have a mind of it's own, it is 100% under the operator's control. It becomes an extension of the operator, in the case of a motorcycle, the rider. In that sense, a motorcycle is far simpler than a horse. But it is possible to bond with a horse because unlike a machine, it has feelings of it's own.


Believe it or not, I used to think technology was cool. My first computer was a Commodore 64. I had a cell phone (car mounted) back in the mid '80s, when they cost a fortune. I was one of the first to jump on the CD bandwagon. But as time went by, and I saw less and less human control of technology, and more and more of technology's control of humans, I began to change my mind. Computer technology was no longer something to play with, it was taking over. I quickly did a turnaround, went back to tapes and records, got rid of the computer and the cell phone, and made sure I did not own any devices with any kind of microprocessor in them. Even today the only computer technology in my life is a laptop connected to the internet, and a handheld cell phone. I use the computer and internet for communication and information only. I keep the cellphone turned off unless I want to make a call, which usually means an emergency, or at least an urgent situation. And absolutely none of the most important non human things in my life (motorcycles and cars) have any type of computer in or on them.


I have also been an amateur radio operator for most of my life. For some time I really enjoyed it. I used home built tube type equipment, and learned how everything worked. And it worked very well. Then along came digital microprocessor controlled equipment that nobody knew anything about, and the whole scene changed. Everybody jumped at this expensive new junk, which took the "amateur" out of amateur radio. I finally gave it up, and carefully packed all my old equipment away in boxes, where it still sits in the closet. Another nice hobby ruined by digital electronics.


For those young people out there in their early 20s, I guess I can understand their attraction to it, it's all they've ever known. But why older people, my age and older, like it I don't have a clue. We grew up in a "real" world, not a "virtual" world, where it is becoming more and more difficult to determine what is actually real and what isn't. Everything seems to be fake now, for without substance. Those old bikes have both form (beautiful form at that) AND substance.

I ride motorcycles to escape from the technology that has taken over everything else. I certainly don't want any of that technology along for the ride.

I could go on forever, but it would be pointless. Like riding itself, it's one of those things that does not require an explanation to those who understand, and no explanation is possible for those who don't.
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:56 PM   #149
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So how long you been a member of the Flat Earth Society? If everybody thought like you, we'd still be dying from the Plague.

I'm not a technology junkie, but I know a good thing when I see it. I used to feel that power windows were just another thing to go wrong, but, guess what, they didn't. Same for the ability to fix points. I've never had an electronic ignition go bad. Oh wait, it did once on a new 1970 Duster 340, ballast resister died. But that was the last time, and that was 40+ years ago.

Fuel injection? Never had one go bad, even going back to a 1972 BMW 2002 Tii, an early FI'd model. I have had to clean the carbs 2 years in a row on an early SV650 though. Personally, at this point with the crap gas we have now, I hate carbs. I hope to never buy another carbed machine ever. I'm looking at the new FI'd Honda CRF250L as a possible replacement for my XT225.

Time and technology marches on. Get with it, or get left behind.
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:43 PM   #150
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Yeah, someone said if you are doing today what you did yesterday, you are a day behind...
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