ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Battle scooters
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-01-2012, 05:57 PM   #151
JerryH
Vintage Rider
 
JerryH's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 4,529
See, I told you it would happen. Is this REALLY what you want? Well, your going to get it anyway. Or at least your kids or grandkids will. Do you actually consider this progress? No more adventure riding. Just hop on and sit there. THE END for all enthusiasts of anything concerning motor vehicles.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------









Want to optimize your fuel economy, lower your auto insurance rates and turn your hair-pulling commute into stress-free "me time"?
Pull over, and let your car drive.
Wait, wait -- not yet! But the day is slowly dawning, perhaps in your lifetime, when computer-enabled autonomous driving will turn all of us, soccer moms and long-haul truckers alike, into chauffeured passengers whose robot cars drive better than we do.
"There's no question that that is going to happen; the only question is when," says Seth Teller, a professor at the Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, or CSAIL, at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Teller's robot car competed in the 2007 Urban Challenge competition sponsored by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA.
That when might be now. California recently signed a bill into law allowing testing of self-driving cars. The law establishes procedures and requirements for determining when the so-called Google cars are road ready, making California the second state behind Nevada to allow the robot cars.
Nevada and California require the cars to have a human behind the wheel who can take control of the vehicle at any time, CNN says.
Google takes to the road

Google made headlines recently when its self-driving test car convinced Nevada to issue the first special driver's permit for autonomous vehicles. Florida, Hawaii and Oklahoma have taken steps to follow. The company says its autonomous vehicles have flawlessly self-navigated 200,000 highway miles, from country roads to San Francisco's famed Lombard Street, with only one fender-bender caused by a human driver.

Audi, BMW and Volkswagen also are jumping on the self-driven bandwagon. Audi's test model recently raced hands-free to the top of Colorado's twisty Pike's Peak.
Though the Google car is not street legal by itself -- the permit requires two humans inside and a $1 million to $3 million bond for road tests -- the milestone marks one giant leap toward a driver's license for robot-kind.
We shouldn't be surprised. Computers have been slowly taking the wheel for decades, from cruise control, anti-lock braking systems and on-board diagnostics, or OBD, to such recent innovations as collision avoidance and self-parking systems.
Despite the deadly and destructive behavior of the HAL 9000 of "2001: A Space Odyssey" fame, the compelling argument for autonomous driving research always has been its potential to save lives. Human behavior is the No. 1 risk factor in all forms of transportation, contributing to 32,885 highway deaths and 2.24 million crash-related injuries in 2010, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Traffic accidents kill 1.3 million people and injure 20 million to 50 million every year worldwide, according to the World Health Organization.
Robot cars don't drink and drive

"Autonomous driving is undeniably the future," says Rob Enderle, a technology analyst based in San Jose, Calif. "A machine doesn't get sleepy, it doesn't drink, it doesn't text. Even if it did, it is certainly capable of massively multitasking, so it would do things like communicate and entertain you while still driving the car."
Teller says three things ultimately will enable your robot car to drive better than you.
  • Sensors: "Machine vision" radar can not only detect objects and flawlessly execute traffic maneuvers, it can "see" through snow, fog and driving rain without need of wipers or headlights.
  • Reaction times: Machines can react faster than humans and breeze through intersections when connected via Wi-Fi to traffic signals and other autonomous cars around them.
  • Improved dynamics models: Robotic drivers can better sense what the car will do under any condition or on any road surface.
"Their collision-avoidance maneuvers, high-performance steering, and acceleration and braking will eventually be on par with the very best human race car and stunt drivers, and in the long run be even better than humans," Teller says.
Enderle notes that mixing human drivers with autonomous ones could initially make the road to implementation a bit bumpy.
"The robotic systems will work much better if the other systems around them are also robotic because they can drive closer," he says. "I mean, you could eliminate traffic with these things. All you do is create a communications link between vehicles, and they could automatically space themselves for changing lanes and all the rest. But add one human driver in that mix, and all the cars would have to back off and give the human plenty of space."
Direct vehicle-to-vehicle, or V2V, communications will be a key hurdle to overcome. Although today's prototypes use GPS to navigate around an obstacle course or on the open road, it's not much good for changing lanes, following flagmen or detecting when a child runs into the street.
Cars that communicate

But once autonomous drivers can communicate with each other, Teller predicts that social pressure will do the rest.
"You'll have situations where a bunch of robotic cars pull up to an intersection with their drivers lounging in the back reading the paper or working on tablets when somebody drives up manually," he says. "The chauffeured passengers lean out their windows and say, 'Hey, idiot! Let your car drive! You're endangering all of us!"
Despite the safety advantages of robot cars, Teller admits software and sensor failures are inevitable.
"If the accident or fatality rate is half or a 10th of what it is when humans drive, you'd get over that tipping point. We have mechanical failures all the time right now, and you don't see people stop driving," he says. "But there's a sea change that has to happen to cross that psychological barrier to give over complete control of the vehicle to the vehicle itself."
Lower car insurance

Cheaper car insurance may provide one incentive. "At some point, you will pay higher premiums to drive your own car than to have the robot drive your car," Teller says.
Tom Baker, a professor of law and health services at the University of Pennsylvania, agrees, noting that medical liability is one of the costliest parts of a standard auto policy.
"Automobile insurers give discounts to people who have safety features on their car," he says. "The cost of the bodily injury liability component of your policy should go down because the chance that you're going to injure someone else is low. And if you're not driving the car, how can it be your fault?"
What impact will robot cars have on fuel economy?
"It's massive," Enderle says. "Since you don't really have to get to work (in order) to work, you could more easily work in your car in transit. Your car could become your mobile office, so it doesn't really matter if you rush or not and the car can pick an optimum speed for fuel efficiency. You would either eliminate rush-hour traffic or make it so that people don't really care. Not only could you get there more quickly, it wouldn't matter if you didn't."








__________________
2002 Vulcan 750 (engine out, slowly being disassembled) 2013 Royal Enfield B5
2001 XT225, 2009 Genuine Stella
2012 Zuma 125, 1980 Puch moped
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 07:08 PM   #152
Warney
Studly Adventurer
 
Warney's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Location: Omaha, Ne
Oddometer: 569
With respect to higher performance, better fuel economy, and lower emissions, electronic fuel injection and digital electronic ignition have raised the bar significantly from what was possible in the 1970's.
With respect to Ham Radio, solid state equipment (especially that equipped with digital signal processing) has far better spectral purity on transmit and significantly more sensitivity and selectivity than tube equipment ever had.
I'll agree the use of SMD's in electronics has taken away any hope of repair for a home tinkerer, at least for me.
Having owned a number of both electro-mechanical and electronic Pinball machines, the electronic machines are far more reliable and easier to troubleshoot and repair. Much more game depth as well.
When Auto manufacturers finally agreed to adopt the standardized OBD II diagnostic system (1996?) Cars and Trucks suddenly became a lot easier to repair if they broke.
Warney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 05:38 AM   #153
Speedo66
Transient
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Cin City, OH
Oddometer: 6,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
See, I told you it would happen. Is this REALLY what you want? Well, your going to get it anyway. Or at least your kids or grandkids will. Do you actually consider this progress? No more adventure riding. Just hop on and sit there. THE END for all enthusiasts of anything concerning motor vehicles.




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you say you're not only a member of the Flat Earth Society, but the president?

Even for you, isn't it quite a stretch from lamenting the silly car manufacturers not wanting to use points anymore to total eradication of driving?
__________________
Oh I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused-E.Costello
'01 Kawasaki W650, '05 Yamaha XT225



Speedo66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 08:44 AM   #154
Dabears
Beastly Adventurer
 
Dabears's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta Burbs
Oddometer: 1,087
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/luddite
__________________
Dabears

2012 SYM HD200 Evo
2006 R1200GS
1980 Vespa P200E
Dabears is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 09:42 AM   #155
redhandmoto
Studly Adventurer
 
redhandmoto's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Tarsnakestan
Oddometer: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabears View Post
heh heh...

But I can completely see where Jerry's coming from: the response of a machine to one's personal manipulations and adjustments, the seeing to of the mount. Modern technology may be more reliable, but a component of personal involvement and responsibilty is gone. cf Shopcraft as Soulcraft.
__________________
DR-Z400SM, '68 Honda 305, '64 Honda C110, '06 Honda VT750, GTS 250ie, Genuine 150, Vino 125, Zuma 125, Yam C3, Honda Met, Tomos ST, PCX 150, Vino Classic 49...
redhandmoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 09:54 AM   #156
klaviator
Beastly Adventurer
 
klaviator's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Oddometer: 5,474
People becoming dependent on modern technology and conveniences???

It could never happen!!


Could it??

">
klaviator is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 04:53 PM   #157
Dirtgrain
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Dirtgrain's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Ypsilanti, MI
Oddometer: 309
"Technology . . . the knack of so arranging the world that we need not experience it" - Max Frisch.

I'm cool with modern motorcycle technology, but I understand where Jerry is coming from. He is out there on an extreme, but not the type that hurts anybody. More power to him (unless he's trolling).
__________________
Don't laugh at my mule: http://new.wavlist.com/movies/176/afd-mule.wav
Dirtgrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 06:06 PM   #158
Brooktown Geezer
scooter guy
 
Brooktown Geezer's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Fallbrook, CA
Oddometer: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedo66 View Post
I used to feel that power windows were just another thing to go wrong, but, guess what, they didn't.
Obviously, you've never owned a VW Jetta.

;^)
Brooktown Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 11:36 AM   #159
JerryH
Vintage Rider
 
JerryH's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Oddometer: 4,529
No trolling here. Everything I've posted are my actual feelings and beliefs. I knew almost nobody would agree, but I had to express them anyway. And it is refreshing to see that at least a few understand.

My youngest daughter (21) and I have this argument all the time. I grew up when music was actually made by talented musicians and vocalists. Movies and TV shows were done by real actors. These people were true artists. That's the way I feel it should be. Todays music (if you could call it that) and movies are mostly computer generated. Most of the great actors, musicians, and singers from my generation are gone, and they have not been replaced with more. Fortunately their stuff is still here, even if you do have to watch or listen to it in digital format.

Remember the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie "Total Recall"? I'm predicting that's the way the future will be. Instead of actually going out and doing something, you will step into a machine, and experience whatever you want in your mind, without having to move. Maybe you could rent "experiences" like movies. If you think this is crazy, it is in fact being worked on, just like driverless cars. At some point (fortunately not in my lifetime) reality as we know it may cease to exist.

This has nothing to do with the original electronic ignition, which was developed before the digital age. I am in fact a fan of GM's original HEI ignition, also the original Jacobs aftermarket system. I guess you could call it electronic, if you call a 50's tube type radio electronic, but my definition of electronic is digital electronics. I have built and repaired many of those old radios. But todays digital crap is completely beyond me, even in concept. The fact that it may work better is irrelevant. Amateur Radio is supposed to be a hobby. Today you get your no code license, buy a few thousand dollars worth of digital equipment, and start talking. Where is the hobby in that?


And yes, at this point in my life I am very much against digital electronic technology. I have already seen and experienced the damage it has done, and the future plans for it scare the hell out of me. My grandkids may never know reality. None of the "benefits" of this technology are even close to being worth the harm it has and will cause. Do you really think we are better off now that half the world is armed with nuclear weapons? Do you think we will be better off when we develop the technology to clone human beings, and can create huge numbers of "copies", genetic duplicates who will have no parents and no identity? Scientists point out all the potential positive aspects of genetic engineering, like preventing birth defects and genetically inherited conditions, but they forget to mention the other side. Just how far is far enough?
__________________
2002 Vulcan 750 (engine out, slowly being disassembled) 2013 Royal Enfield B5
2001 XT225, 2009 Genuine Stella
2012 Zuma 125, 1980 Puch moped
JerryH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 01:46 PM   #160
klaviator
Beastly Adventurer
 
klaviator's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Oddometer: 5,474
Everyone is comfortable with different levels of technology. On one hand we have the Amish who don't use electricity or any modern technology, and on the other hand we have those who go stand in line for a day to get the latest gadget when it comes out. Most of us are somewhere in between. Personally I have nothing against modern technology if it is an improvement over what it is replacing. However, a lot of modern technology is not so much an improvement, as it is a huge change. Look at the modern cell phone. It's no longer just a phone, it is the center of many peoples lives. You can do almost anything today with your "smart" phone. Soon people will grow tired of having to manually command their phone and will have them hardwired to their brains. What I see in our future looks a lot like the Borg from Star Trek. Resistance is futile! We will assimilate you. Just like the Borg, people cut off from their link to the rest of the world (their smart phone) are completely lost. Think I'm over exaggerating here? How many people do you Know that are NEVER without their smart phone?

Getting back to motorcycles/scooters. My biggest problem with many modern bikes is that they have become overly complex to the point that they are difficult to service, and also that styling and image often replace functionality and useability. Look at the seat on many motorcycles. they certainly weren't designed for someone to sit comfortably on. The tail section on many modern motorcycles are very difficult to mount any luggage on. One of the reasons that small scooters appeal to me is that they are still designed to actually be practical and some of them are still relatively simple and easy to work on. No, I can't fix the electronic ignition if it fails but I can easily change to oil, adjust the valves and do other routine maintenance.

Now, if someone would use modern technology to eliminate most of this servicing (Hydraulic valves, belts that don't wear out, etc) I'd be all for it.

As for modern vs "character". They aren't mutually exclusive. A Ducati Panignale is about as high tech as bike come. Does it have character, sure. Do I want one? No. It has way more capability than I have skill.
__________________
I ride, Therefore I Am.



klaviator is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 02:54 PM   #161
Brooktown Geezer
scooter guy
 
Brooktown Geezer's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Fallbrook, CA
Oddometer: 481
Actually Klaviator, your cellphone analogy sort of proves at least a small part of Jerry's point. Go to any restaurant, and you'll see families, husbands and wives looking at their cell phones while waiting for dinner. They're on Facebook, or texting, ignoring the real person in front of them, while partaking in some virtual conversation that must be far more engaging than the person they are sitting next to. I'm not exaggerating, I have been one of those people, and I'm determined to stop being one of them.

I've also noticed that as the world of aquaintances (I don't mind real friends and family) gets more and more instant access to me at any time of day via email and text on my phone, my attention span has shortened. When I'm at work, I can't give 10 minutes of undivided attention to a project without a text or an email coming in (and of course, Apple's new OS makes sure that this event gets a banner right in front of your face now instead of going quietly into a mail box to be read later.) These things are not making my life better, they are making it fragmented into 5 minute bites.

I'm turning stuff off. I'll still have the iPhone because yes it is a wonderful tool, but from now on I'm trying to recapture time rather than being at the beck and call of every electronic pavlovian ringtone, announcing a picture of a donut someone just bought.

I'll look at it when I have time.
Brooktown Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 04:00 PM   #162
hexnut
just cruising
 
hexnut's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: middle Tennessee
Oddometer: 1,319
I have no face book account and my phone only makes and receives calls. Now my wife and daughter have all the latest technology in their phones.

Now I do like the latest automotive technology. They run so much better, are more efficient and will last for 300 thousand + miles if serviced regularly.
__________________
2014 Harley Sportster 883 Superlow

hexnuts...a curse put on your balls by a mean gypsy
3/5 Cav, C Troop, BlackKnights, Vietnam 1969
hexnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 06:54 PM   #163
CaseyJones
Ridin' that train
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Wisconsin
Oddometer: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaviator View Post

Getting back to motorcycles/scooters. My biggest problem with many modern bikes is that they have become overly complex to the point that they are difficult to service, and also that styling and image often replace functionality and useability. Look at the seat on many motorcycles. they certainly weren't designed for someone to sit comfortably on. The tail section on many modern motorcycles are very difficult to mount any luggage on. One of the reasons that small scooters appeal to me is that they are still designed to actually be practical and some of them are still relatively simple and easy to work on. No, I can't fix the electronic ignition if it fails but I can easily change to oil, adjust the valves and do other routine maintenance.

Now, if someone would use modern technology to eliminate most of this servicing (Hydraulic valves, belts that don't wear out, etc) I'd be all for it.
Ha! Hydraulic tappets require high oil galley pressures (instead of the semi-splash systems with maybe 5-10 psi to the heads) and also sap a lot of power...less efficient; because the valve action loses a lot of "snap." On a car that's acceptable...just put a somewhat bigger engine in. Note that originally on the economy models (the Pinto engine, the Yugo and VW engines; and the Chrysler Slant Six, which was designed for the Valiant) manufacturers continued to use mechanically-adjusted valves. Because at the time those cars needed all the power those engines could put out.

Styling on modern motorcycles: I'm as put-off as you are...but it dawned on me. The "stepped seat" on the cruisers, is to give the little lady (who is ALWAYS the passenger) a higher seat so she can see over the shoulder of her man/the operator. I got into riding in the 1980s when the UJB was just being phased out...I had a Yamaha SR500; a classic UJB with a straight long saddle. And my woman was a lot shorter than me.

And while she liked being with me out there, she didn't much like the scenery, which was mostly my backbone.
__________________
2007 Burgman 650 Executive...my last hurrah
2011 Xingyue XY300t-4 - Rust in pieces, all over my garage floor. Make me an offer!
2005 Honda BigRuckus...The Last Word; the Armageddon AdventureRide.
CaseyJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 07:03 PM   #164
hexnut
just cruising
 
hexnut's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: middle Tennessee
Oddometer: 1,319
Every Harley I have owned had hydraulic lifters but they had pushrods and did not rev really high. Its not that hydraulic lifters are less efficient than solid lifters, they aren't. Hydraulic lifters will float out at high rpm. Solid lifters do not suffer from this and will rev higher. Thats why back in the day most all the high performance engines had solid lifters.
__________________
2014 Harley Sportster 883 Superlow

hexnuts...a curse put on your balls by a mean gypsy
3/5 Cav, C Troop, BlackKnights, Vietnam 1969
hexnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 08:13 PM   #165
CaseyJones
Ridin' that train
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Wisconsin
Oddometer: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by hexnut View Post
Every Harley I have owned had hydraulic lifters but they had pushrods and did not rev really high. Its not that hydraulic lifters are less efficient than solid lifters, they aren't. Hydraulic lifters will float out at high rpm. Solid lifters do not suffer from this and will rev higher. Thats why back in the day most all the high performance engines had solid lifters.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say. Hydraulic tappets lose much of the "snap" that poppet valves have. And yes, at high rpms, they will float.

But that Slant Six, although a strong runner...that was no racing engine!
__________________
2007 Burgman 650 Executive...my last hurrah
2011 Xingyue XY300t-4 - Rust in pieces, all over my garage floor. Make me an offer!
2005 Honda BigRuckus...The Last Word; the Armageddon AdventureRide.
CaseyJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 08:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014