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Old 08-14-2012, 06:09 AM   #16
topless
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A few years ago Mobil lost a lawsuit that showed some oil companies were using the "synthetic" label on their products and the product was not a full synthetic, but contained more than 1/2 synthetic by volume. That's when Mobil 1 suddenly had 3 different mileage ratings and costs. The only full synthetic Mobil 1 is the 15,000 mile version. Just because a bottle says synthetic, doesn't mean it contains 100% synthetic base oil.
One more thing, if any oil has an API certification, it has exactly the same additive package as every other oil with the same rating. So called racing oils that do not carry a standard API rating, will be a better additive package.

As far as spend $5 or $15 for an oil change, I come from the old school off "oil is cheap iron is expensive". Change cheap oil often enough and it will do fine, or buy a better product and extend the oil change intervals with confidence that you are protecting your investment. It's your choice. That is why I mentioned no brand names with my information.
Since all of my bikes hold about a quart, $12-15 to protect the engine for 1000 miles is cheap insurance.
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:17 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topless View Post
A few years ago Mobil lost a lawsuit that showed some oil companies were using the "synthetic" label on their products and the product was not a full synthetic, but contained more than 1/2 synthetic by volume. That's when Mobil 1 suddenly had 3 different mileage ratings and costs. The only full synthetic Mobil 1 is the 15,000 mile version. Just because a bottle says synthetic, doesn't mean it contains 100% synthetic base oil.
One more thing, if any oil has an API certification, it has exactly the same additive package as every other oil with the same rating. So called racing oils that do not carry a standard API rating, will be a better additive package.

As far as spend $5 or $15 for an oil change, I come from the old school off "oil is cheap iron is expensive". Change cheap oil often enough and it will do fine, or buy a better product and extend the oil change intervals with confidence that you are protecting your investment. It's your choice. That is why I mentioned no brand names with my information.
Since all of my bikes hold about a quart, $12-15 to protect the engine for 1000 miles is cheap insurance.
One of the myths going around. There was no lawsuit. heres the deal..

There was not and never has been any suit AT LAW regarding the use of the term "synthetic" for Group III base oil, and no court or ALJ has made a ruling on this matter. Mobil simply filed a complaint with the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau in the US claiming that Castrol was engaging in false advertising by calling Syntec "full synthetic" since it was now being made with Group III base oil. Castrol was able to present enough "evidence" to convince the NAD that Group III base oil could legitimately be called synthetic, so they rulled in Castrol's favor. This ruling has no "legal" standing. It merely means that as far as the NAD is concerned, an oil company is not falsely advertising an oil as "full synthetic" if that oil is made from Group III base oil.

The NAD is merely a self-regulatory arm of the BBB and has no legal standing whatsoever in the U.S. Hence, their ruling in this matter does not make it "legal" to claim that a Group III oil is "synthetic." It merely means that for any entity willing to abide by the NAD's guidelines, a Group III oil can be ADVERTISED under those guidelines as a synthetic.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...=950368&page=1

The Ruling
In a ruling released April 1999, the NAD addressed complaints filed by Mobil Oil Corp. regarding the truthfulness of Castrol North America Inc.'s claim that its Syntec® provides "superior engine protection" to all other motor oils, both synthetic and conventional, and that Syntec's esters provide "unique molecular bonding." Mobil charged that the advertisements inaccurately represented that the current formulation of Syntec is synthetic. The challenge was filed based on statements Castrol made in a series of television commercials, Web site publications, package labels, and brochures.

The NAD divided its decision to address three issues raised in the complaint. Is the reformulated Syntec synthetic motor oil? Has Castrol substantiated its superiority claims? Has Syntec been degraded?

Synthetic?
The NAD determined that the evidence presented by the advertiser constitutes a reasonable basis for the claim that Castrol Syntec, as currently formulated, is a synthetic motor oil. NAD noted that Mobil markets hydroisomerized basestocks as synthetic in Europe and elsewhere. NAD noted that the action taken by the SAE to delete any reference to "synthetic" in its description of basestocks in section J354 and API's consequent removal of any mention of "synthetic" in API1509 were decisions by the industry not to restrict use of the term "synthetic" to the definition now proffered by Mobil. Further, the SAE Automotive Lubricants Reference Book, an extensively peer-reviewed publication, states base oils made through the processes used to create Shell's hydroisomerized basestock, severe cracking, and reforming processes may be marketed as "synthetic."
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:47 AM   #18
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for mexico city's mild climate I'd go with 30wt. for liquid cool and a 40wt. for air cool
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:39 PM   #19
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Energy Conserving Oil

Hi,

There is one thing I want to point out regarding Energy Conserving oil. People point out the fact that scooters do not have oil bath clutches, therefor energy conserving oil is ok. Not always. It is my understanding there is one more issue with energy conserving oil... they can be hard on oil seals.

If your scooter's owner's manual says to not use energy conserving oil, the scooter's oil seals may not be compatible with energy conserving oil. Even if it doesn't make sense, it is better to follow the manual. After all, they made the machine.
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:55 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HisMajesty400 View Post
Hi,

There is one thing I want to point out regarding Energy Conserving oil. People point out the fact that scooters do not have oil bath clutches, therefor energy conserving oil is ok. Not always. It is my understanding there is one more issue with energy conserving oil... they can be hard on oil seals.

If your scooter's owner's manual says to not use energy conserving oil, the scooter's oil seals may not be compatible with energy conserving oil. Even if it doesn't make sense, it is better to follow the manual. After all, they made the machine.

Myth, no basis for your statement. When synthetic first came on the market in the 70s they could be hard on seals but thats not been true for a number of years. All ILSAC API rated oils either mineral or synthetic are not harmful to seals. You would have to have a really old scooter to not have seals that are not new oil compatable.

http://www.vurup.sk/sites/vurup.sk/a...9_sagi_017.pdf

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-...tic-motor-oil/

http://royalpurpleconsumer.com/why-rp/faqs/
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Old 08-15-2012, 02:26 PM   #21
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Final answer? Shell Rotella T6.
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Old 08-15-2012, 03:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Warney View Post
Final answer? Shell Rotella T6.
Works for me. I don't use an energy conserving oil because...They are rated 5W30. Most scooters call for a 5/10/15W40 or a 5W50. None of these weights are energy conserving.
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Old 08-15-2012, 04:34 PM   #23
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Rotella is not available here.

Hexnut, what is your take on "High Mileage" oils? I find it really funny that they market them for cars with 100,000 miles in the USA or 100,000kms (65,000 miles) in Mexico. The magic number is 100,000.
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Old 08-15-2012, 04:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Süsser Tod View Post
Rotella is not available here.

Hexnut, what is your take on "High Mileage" oils? I find it really funny that they market them for cars with 100,000 miles in the USA or 100,000kms (65,000 miles) in Mexico. The magic number is 100,000.
More additives and seal conditioners and at the top of the viscosity range, a little thicker. Each weight has a viscosity range so a 30 weight can be a little thicker or thinner depending on the manufacturer.

Viscosity chart..

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:29 PM   #25
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First of all, I live some distance north of you, in Phoenix, AZ. It does get HOT here in the summer, around 115 degreesF. It very rarely ever drops below 32 degreesF in the winter. I use 20w50 in all my scooters, motorcycles, cars, lawn mower, etc. year around, without any problems. 20w50 flows just as well as 10w40. all the internal surfaces will still be coated in oil the next time you start it, unless it has been years, and the higher the viscosity of the oil, the longer it will stay on those surfaces. Under your conditions, you could safely use a 10w40, or 15w40, but any thinner, and you are just asking for trouble. In order to protect the engine, the oil must prevent metal to metal contact at all costs under all conditions. Oil lighter than 10w40 does not have the film strength to do that, especially under load. I don't see how the "energy conserving" additives could hurt an engine without a wet clutch, it's the super thin oil that will kill the engine. You don't say what kind of scooter you have, if it is a small displacement scooter, then 10w40 might be better for it than 20w50. Different engines need different oils under the same conditions. A 650cc single will require thicker oil than a 650cc inline four, because it's bearings take a lot more of a pounding, and need the thicker oil as a cushion. A small displacement engine, like a 50cc, acts more like a multi cylinder engine than a single. It's tiny displacement is not enough to really hammer the bearings.


As for all the crap about synthetic vs conventional, and motorcycle specific vs car oil, most of it is BS for car oil 10w40 and above. The only proven advantage to synthetic oil, other than making money slip out of your wallet more easily, is that it holds it's viscosity longer, it's molecular structure does not break down and get thinner nearly as fast. Now that would be a good thing, except that oil gets dirty. And the less oil an engine holds, the faster it gets dirty. Dirty oil is contaminated oil, it gets contaminated by combustion gases leaking past the rings and winding up in the crankcase. I would never leave the oil in a small scooter or motorcycle in there for more than 1000 miles, and conventional oil will easily hold up that long. I will not leave the oil in any vehicle including cars for more than 3,000 miles or 3 months. If you change your oil properly, you do not need the only proven advantage synthetic oils have.

Now about motorcycle vs car oil, there is some truth to that, but it is disappearing fast. There are 2 additives that ALL engine oils need, zinc and phosphorus. These additives have been removed from car oil some time ago, because they are claimed to damage catalytic converters. But motorcycle oils still had them, which not only made them better for motorcycles, but for cars as well. Now that some motorcycles and scooters are coming with catalytic converters, motorcycle oil manufacturers have been slowly and quietly removing these additives from their oil too, making it no better than car oil.


But all is not lost. Diesel engines do not have emissions crap on them like cars and motorcycles, and diesel oil still contains a lot of these additives. So if you can use the 15w40 viscosity that diesel oils come in, that is by far the best thing to use. I am a professional auto, truck, and heavy equipment mechanic for a city fleet services department. I have had 35 years of experience and training. We use 15w40 Shell Rotella diesel oil in everything, from large diesel trucks and tractors, to cars and pickups, and landscaping equipment. We get it in 55 gallon drums. My boss, who buys the oil, is a few years older than me, and feels the same way I do about it. Most new cars recommend 5w30 or less, including 00w30 and 00w10. you can even get 00w0. This stuff is like water, and will not protect an engine. Hydraulic oil, including transmission fluid, is straight 10w. Ever wonder why engines almost always outlast automatic transmissions? It has mostly to do with the super thin oil automatic transmissions use. It may work fine in the hydraulic system on a backhoe, but it does not protect moving parts, like the gears in a transmission. I have never seen diesel oil cause any problems when used in cars, pickups, or motorcycles.

But the main thing is to never use anything thinner than 10w40, and in a scooter, change it every 1000 miles. If you choose to use $15 a qt. synthetic, fine, as long as it is at least 10w40, and you change it every 10,000 miles. I have 4 motorcycles, 2 scooters, 2 cars, and a truck to change oil in. So I use the cheapest oil I can get, Walmart SuperTech. and I change it often. And my engines last forever.

There is one exception, that someone mentioned above, and that is an engine with a significant amount of wear. When I bought my '62 Ford Fairlane, it burned a qt. of oil in 200 miles. I was going to rebuild the engine, but first decided to try something. I put straight 50w oil in it, along with a bottle of STP oil treatment (which increases viscosity even more) Oil consumption dropped about 70%, and the engine will last a lot longer, because that heavy oil will protect the moving parts, especially the bearings better. It also provides a better ring seal, preventing oil from the crankcase from getting into the combustion chamber and burning.

Just stay away from that super thin oil, and you and your scooter will be fine.
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:57 PM   #26
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Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates or ZDDP has not been removed from oils. It has been reduced. It used to be 1200 to 1400 ppm. Now its down to around 800 ppm. There are other anti wear additives that have taken its place. Motorcycle oils and racing oils still have a good dose of ZDDP.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...otor_Oils.aspx
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:26 AM   #27
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Delo 100 and 400 for diesels is another option. We used it as the oil we replaced in our 600 mile checkups at the scooter shop, and I've used it in all of my gas and diesel vehicles and equipment.

I'm also in the 'replace your oil often' camp for small engines, often times small engines suffer from a bit of gas contamination from over-choking and the new gas in the US with ethanol does a number on oil life, in my experience.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:38 PM   #28
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How many of you 1000 (small engine)/3000 (large engine) mile oil change advocates have ever had your used oil analyzed? None? That's what I thought.

Oh, it's too expensive to have the oil analyzed, cheaper to just change the oil and send your wasted money to Saudi Arabia via the oil companies? Just keep wasting oil, huh?

I go by the manufacturer's recommendation and have never had an engine failure due to oil in my 58 years of fooling with internal combustion engines.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:45 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Barnone View Post
How many of you 1000 (small engine)/3000 (large engine) mile oil change advocates have ever had your used oil analyzed? None? That's what I thought.

Oh, it's too expensive to have the oil analyzed, cheaper to just change the oil and send your wasted money to Saudi Arabia via the oil companies? Just keep wasting oil, huh?

I go by the manufacturer's recommendation and have never had an engine failure due to oil in my 58 years of fooling with internal combustion engines.
Good post...I use Blackstone

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:54 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnone View Post
How many of you 1000 (small engine)/3000 (large engine) mile oil change advocates have ever had your used oil analyzed? None? That's what I thought.

Oh, it's too expensive to have the oil analyzed, cheaper to just change the oil and send your wasted money to Saudi Arabia via the oil companies? Just keep wasting oil, huh?

I go by the manufacturer's recommendation and have never had an engine failure due to oil in my 58 years of fooling with internal combustion engines.
WUT? I change the oil on the XT660 every year or... 8,000 something miles, or every year, as the manual says. I actually follow the service schedule on the manual on all of my bikes (one of the reasons why I said "screw it" and voided the warranty on the XT660, long story).

I'm only considering extending the OCI on the AN125 because the oil change inteval is "not convenient".
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