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Old 09-01-2012, 04:34 AM   #106
HardCase
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktm360mx View Post
I'd love your opinions on the .444 Marlin. I am planning a trip to AK and western Canada for 6 months next year and this is one of the tools on the list. My uncle gave me a brand new .444 Marlin - nice gun, referred to it as a hog gun.

Wondering what you think besides that it's an oddball cartridge.

Thanks
I've never owned nor even fired one, but think it's an interesting cartridge and ought to serve your purpose. They came out originally in the mid '60s and the knock on them at the time was the lightly constructed bullets, generally 240 grain handgun bullets designed for the lower velocities of the 44 Mag. Since then a number of companies have loaded them with heavier bullets. I suspect that Buffalo Bore makes ammo for the 444 and that's what I'd get if I wanted to use it as a bear SD gun, if I didn't handload.

Handloading for it ought to make it a very useful versatile round. I'd load it with hard-cast SWC bullets in the 300-320gr range, assuming they were reasonably accurate.
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Old 09-01-2012, 04:20 PM   #107
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Yeah, I don't know much about the .444 either. I do know that I read up on it a while back, and would feel OK about using it for black bear... but black bear aren't gonna be your problem where you're headed.

If it were I, and I was hoping to save $$$ by using that, I'd look into what people thought of super-hot loaded .444 hollow-nose or solid bullets might do to larger bear. It's certainly gotta be better than something like a .30-06, the question is how much better?
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Old 09-01-2012, 04:33 PM   #108
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Yea, I don't think it's ideal, but it's not common enough for anyone to really know how well or poorly it would do with larger animals. I haven't met a single person that has actually fired one. I guess I am the first.....
We are driving through canada and will probably go the 357 or larger route with a 4 or 6 inch barrel. We will see.
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:39 PM   #109
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Search all the "can I take a gun to Canada" threads.

In short, you may not bring your six shooter. We are a foreign country and don't care what
the rules are where you are from.
You may bring your long gun provided it suits our rules. No, your AR15 with the 20+ round mag will not be welcome.

Enjoy your trip.
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:50 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by GP640 View Post
Search all the "can I take a gun to Canada" threads.

In short, you may not bring your six shooter. We are a foreign country and don't care what
the rules are where you are from.
You may bring your long gun provided it suits our rules. No, your AR15 with the 20+ round mag will not be welcome.

Enjoy your trip.
Who is asking about bringing their guns to Canada? Our gun laws are written by little old women. We live in a country where it's actually illegal to defend ourselves. It's really bizarre.
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:54 PM   #111
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The 60 post noob from the South was talking about bringing his .357 up on his way through.
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:55 PM   #112
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Looking at a Remington 870 Express Deer. It has rifle sights. 20" tube. Might be a good defence gun for bear? Cheap too. Designed for slugs and buckshot. Thoughts?
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:59 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GP640 View Post
The 60 post noob from the South was talking about bringing his .357 up on his way through.
Okay, I misse that. Pretty sure if he is passing through, to say Alaska, his firearm can be sealed at the border and presented to US customs upon entering Alaska? He'd have to do his homework here, but it used to be done.
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:00 PM   #114
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I've carried a short 870 while running bear baits.
Great gun and I preferred it to my buddy's Mossberg. It is an effective gun for your
use. If you like it, Id say buy it.

Extra barrels are easy to come by if you want to take up bird shooting.
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:22 PM   #115
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I've carried a short 870 while running bear baits.
Great gun and I preferred it to my buddy's Mossberg. It is an effective gun for your
use. If you like it, Id say buy it.

Extra barrels are easy to come by if you want to take up bird shooting.
Sounds like just the ticket. I have a buddy into trap....who knows? But it looks ideal as a close in weapon, it looks ideal.
Lyle
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:34 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Mambo Dave View Post
+1

Plus http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.html

My buddy bought Garrett 45-70's, and killed two full grown wild hogs from the side (through the plate oat least one!) with one shot. I'm not shitting you - I was there with my Marlin lever-action .357 Magnum.

Both hogs fell from one shot.

"PENETRATION: THE 45-70 & 458 MAGNUMS
The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett
There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.
Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.
- Randy Garrett" http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html
The reason, at a given point, higher velocity results in less penetration is, at the molecular level, the higher speed results in higher heat build up, due to the molecules not having time to get out of the way, so to speak, and resulting in higher resistance to the projectile. Hope that makes sense.
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:15 PM   #117
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I saw one of these today at the local sporting goods store. Looks like a winner.

http://www.remington.com/products/fi...-tactical.aspx


Quote:
8+1 Capacity
ProBore choke system includes both IC and Tactical Extended Choke Tubes
Oversized bolt release button and bolt release
Oversized trigger guard for easy operation when wearing gloves
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:49 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GP640 View Post
Search all the "can I take a gun to Canada" threads.

In short, you may not bring your six shooter. We are a foreign country and don't care what
the rules are where you are from.
You may bring your long gun provided it suits our rules. No, your AR15 with the 20+ round mag will not be welcome.

Enjoy your trip.
is it worth the trouble to bring your shotty into Canada?
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Old 09-01-2012, 11:20 PM   #119
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bear gun

a 22 pistol...shoot your father-in- law in the knee and then walk swiftly away
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:54 AM   #120
Mambo Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YOUNZ View Post
The reason, at a given point, higher velocity results in less penetration is, at the molecular level, the higher speed results in higher heat build up, due to the molecules not having time to get out of the way, so to speak, and resulting in higher resistance to the projectile. Hope that makes sense.
Nope, not really - but I'm not saying you're wrong... just that while I usually understand scientific explanations to some degree, the building up of heat equating to less penetration isn't clicking this morning. Obviously something is, or some number of things are, to blame for lower penetration... Thank you for the explanation though. Eventually I'll use that to search for a better understanding of the phenomena.
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