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Old 11-30-2014, 11:56 PM   #1
Chuckybear OP
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Snell 2005 not so safe?

Ive been looking to buy a new higher end helmet and come across the Shoei Hornet. After doing some research Ive read some interesting articles about Snell, DOT, and ECE and now Im not so sure that the extra money is worth it. Ive read somewhere that the new Snell 2010 is much safer and has addressed the issues with the 2005 problems.

Here are some links to the articles. Really good read a bit controversial and below is the article that got the guy fired.

http://jalopnik.com/5582380/how-the-...urnalist-fired

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/au...s/27SNELL.html

Have you guys had any experiences with Snell 2005 helmets or the Hornet for that matter. They are still on shelves to this day. The hornet I almost bought today has a 2005 rating and I wear a size SM, just freaks me out a bit.

I want to buy a really nice and safe Dual Sport helmet but not quite sure what to think now there aren't many options for an actual DS helmet. the current helmet I own is an Moto X $70 AFX-17 DOT approved; that catches wind at high speeds.

Your opinions will be valued..well by me anyways.
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:58 AM   #2
Grinnin
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When Dexter Ford wrote his 2005 article in Motorcyclist magazine he included a statement something like "any modern helmet is far more protective than the best helmets from a decade or two ago".

While his article pointed out that Snell was headed (then) in the wrong direction, he acknowledged that all helmets were getting better.

I had a Snell 2005 helmet. I now have a Snell 2010 helmet and am comforted by the "softer landing" standards instead of the 2005 "harder hits" standard. Since I haven't crashed either helmet I don't have any comparison on how they crash.
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Old 12-02-2014, 01:45 AM   #3
KEN PHENIX
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Well this is academic now anyway. If you still have a M2005 rated lid, it's time to retire it.
Quote:
They argue that current Snell-rated helmets are too rigid and unyielding to properly absorb impact energy in the great majority of motorcycle crashes, subjecting riders to preventable brain injuries.
The "Snell is too stiff" argument has been raging for years. To that I say three words: dual density liner.

Quote:
According to Mr. Becker, the M2010 standard was designed in consultation with helmet manufacturers, to allow a single helmet design to pass all the world’s major standards. As it stands now, a Snell M2005-certified helmet may also pass the D.O.T. standard, but is unlikely to pass the ECE 22-05 standard used in European countries. Manufacturers must re-engineer their Snell M2005-rated helmets, making them “softer” in order to sell them in Europe.
It occurred to me that it might be more cost efficient for helmet makers to use the same liner material for their Snell and non-Snell offerings. Fine. I'm more concerned with the "bounce factor" of cheaper polycarb shells as opposed to composite ones. I will continue to trust Snell and am encouraged by the 2010 re-think. When I see the cheap junk beanies out there that DOT has allowed to self-certify to the exact same standard as top of the line full face racing models, I'm glad there is an independent organization like Snell dedicated to helmet safety. But that's just me.
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:53 AM   #4
No False Enthusiasm
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You might check for the revised version of the Hornet...

Rumor is that it should be out in the next couple of months.

NFE

PS: Found the thread... http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1013745

No False Enthusiasm screwed with this post 12-02-2014 at 06:17 AM
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Old 12-03-2014, 10:18 AM   #5
markk53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN PHENIX View Post
It occurred to me that it might be more cost efficient for helmet makers to use the same liner material for their Snell and non-Snell offerings. Fine. I'm more concerned with the "bounce factor" of cheaper polycarb shells as opposed to composite ones. I will continue to trust Snell and am encouraged by the 2010 re-think. When I see the cheap junk beanies out there that DOT has allowed to self-certify to the exact same standard as top of the line full face racing models, I'm glad there is an independent organization like Snell dedicated to helmet safety. But that's just me.

Considering the low buck DOT helmets, like AFX, met the Snell test standards in the Motorcyclist article, what makes you think they don't?

If they didn't I could see law suits being lined up for selling "unsafe" helmets.

In addition, that "bounce factor" you speak of was pointed out as part of the system the polycarbonates have that reduces shock to the skull. Flex in the shell that the old Snell standard did not allow and thus transmitted higher shock than the plastic ones. I believe that is part of the revisions in the new Snell MC standards. That bit of flex can be the difference between a light concussion and a severe concussion... No shock absorbing flex requires the EPS shell take more and the transmission of higher shock to the rider's brain, getting bounced harder.

Personally it isn't Snell that means anything to me, other than if a helmet manufacturer has one model from their line tested, the others will be very similar in design and EPS liners. They aren't going to intentionally downgrade protection, considering the risk for litigation.

Some guy selling skull caps at a roadside stand isn't in the same realm.
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markk53 screwed with this post 12-03-2014 at 10:25 AM
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:19 PM   #6
SpeedyR
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too old

check the manfuactured date on the helmet. on the shoei it should be on the liner.

Every 5 years they re-write the standard, so in 2015 there should be a new "SNELL standard. that's probably why there's a new Hornet out to meet the new standard. I would guess that they may have a new dirt helmet out in the near future to replace the VFX-W but that's just a guess as well. it could be that the old one meets the new standard as well...

anyway the 2010 SNELL standard is much better IMHO compared to the 2005 because of the lower impact forces.

It might have changed but I don't see any AFX helmets that meet SNELL. At the time the point of the MC article was that a non snell helmet would transmit lower impact forces. So some of the very low end helmets "tested" better because they used a softer EPS and had lower impact forces from the DOT tests compared to the harder to meet SNELL standards. That was changed quite a bit from 2005 to 2010.
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:20 PM   #7
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There is also the newer Snell 2015 standard coming out soon...
Pretty much identical to Snell 2010 so it's not much to worry about.
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Old 12-03-2014, 08:45 PM   #8
Chuckybear OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No False Enthusiasm View Post
You might check for the revised version of the Hornet...

Rumor is that it should be out in the next couple of months.

NFE

PS: Found the thread... http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1013745
Sweet thanks for the info. I think Ill hold off on the old hornet and keep riding my old helmet until the new one comes out. although I feel the new hornet looks a little cheesy, but thats not my main concern.

I feel pretty confident with the Snell M2010 or for that matter 2015 I did a tons more research and I think I just need to find a helmet that fits me perfectly. AFX is slightly a little large and I want a quality helmet. I think Ill be looking into the Hornet once I have a little more money.

Thanks for all of yall's input
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Old 12-04-2014, 05:34 PM   #9
markk53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckybear View Post
Sweet thanks for the info. I think Ill hold off on the old hornet and keep riding my old helmet until the new one comes out. although I feel the new hornet looks a little cheesy, but thats not my main concern.

I feel pretty confident with the Snell M2010 or for that matter 2015 I did a tons more research and I think I just need to find a helmet that fits me perfectly. AFX is slightly a little large and I want a quality helmet. I think Ill be looking into the Hornet once I have a little more money.

Thanks for all of yall's input
That is the key. I cannot fit the Shoei, so it is of no value to me. I do fit the AFX and also the Arai, but not the Shoei. I can afford the AFX, will eventally do the Arai because I like the general helmet better.

BUT if the Shoei fits you well, then that is the trick. If it fit me I'd certainly consider it, because I like them as well. Just wrong head for the Shoei.

If you spend the big bucks, you want to maximize its life. Don't leave it in the garage, store it in a closet in the house away from any chance of fumes, light, and electric motors which produce ozone. There is no reason why a good helmet should not last several years in average use. Daily commuting will shorten that time to a couple years though, just due to wear and tear.
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:01 PM   #10
baloneyskin daddy
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If you wear a dew rag under it it brings it up to spec.
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:03 PM   #11
Chuckybear OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
That is the key. I cannot fit the Shoei, so it is of no value to me. I do fit the AFX and also the Arai, but not the Shoei. I can afford the AFX, will eventally do the Arai because I like the general helmet better.

BUT if the Shoei fits you well, then that is the trick. If it fit me I'd certainly consider it, because I like them as well. Just wrong head for the Shoei.

If you spend the big bucks, you want to maximize its life. Don't leave it in the garage, store it in a closet in the house away from any chance of fumes, light, and electric motors which produce ozone. There is no reason why a good helmet should not last several years in average use. Daily commuting will shorten that time to a couple years though, just due to wear and tear.
right on! thanks for the info.
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:09 PM   #12
Chuckybear OP
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Originally Posted by baloneyskin daddy View Post
If you wear a dew rag under it it brings it up to spec.
Hahah I had the same thought the other day when I put my hoodie on, it was really snug and then I thought...wait nope that's the dumbest sense of logic Ive had all week.
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:58 PM   #13
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My two cents....
I have personally 'tested' the quality of a Snell 2005 Arai XD a few weeks ago in a collision with a cager and I was damn glad to have a Snell helmet on my head (RIP Arai). As a previous post stated, that helmet needed to be replaced anyway due to its age. I now have a XD-4.

Since the Snell cert is strictly voluntary, I'm not surprised that a well-constructed higher end DOT helmet would outperform some Snell helmets. That tells me that the DOT helmet must have had excellent engineering and build quality but the manufacturer was not interested in jumping through the hoops to get Snell cert at that helmet's price point. Especially if another, more expensive model in their line carries Snell cert.

Based on that article in Motorcyclist, it's just not the case the every Snell helmet will outperform every DOT. But, Walliemart sells shiny new $50 DOT-certified helmets. Any takers? Notme. Just sayin...
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Old 12-05-2014, 09:53 AM   #14
markk53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MX2ADV View Post
My two cents....
I have personally 'tested' the quality of a Snell 2005 Arai XD a few weeks ago in a collision with a cager and I was damn glad to have a Snell helmet on my head (RIP Arai). As a previous post stated, that helmet needed to be replaced anyway due to its age. I now have a XD-4.

Since the Snell cert is strictly voluntary, I'm not surprised that a well-constructed higher end DOT helmet would outperform some Snell helmets. That tells me that the DOT helmet must have had excellent engineering and build quality but the manufacturer was not interested in jumping through the hoops to get Snell cert at that helmet's price point. Especially if another, more expensive model in their line carries Snell cert.

Based on that article in Motorcyclist, it's just not the case the every Snell helmet will outperform every DOT. But, Walliemart sells shiny new $50 DOT-certified helmets. Any takers? Notme. Just sayin...

Including transmitting more shock to the brain due to the high impact requirements where the polycarbonate shell flexes slightly transmitting less shock - per Dr. David Thom (known/respected expert) and the Motorcyclist testing by him - an "out performance" that is a serious negative.

That was the main focus of the testing - excessive requirements in some areas that made the Snell helmets perform worse in this critical areas for motorcyclists, since a vast majority of motorcycle accidents are the helmet smacking the ground seldom in the same place twice, not roll cages and in the exact same spot twice. That was part of Snell's adjustments for motorcycle testing, although I'm not sure they did enough or not.

As for Wally World, unless I knew for sure who the maker was I wouldn't do so. They sell Bell bicycle helmets, one of the leaders in the industry for bicycles and former leader in motorcycle helmets - but coming back. Suppose you learn that Bell helmets made the Wally World helmet, you think they'd risk the liability for inferior product? I don't.

As I said, Bell helmet in the midst of their "$10 helmet, $10 head" campaign made a polycarbonate ringer for their Bell Moto Star under the Vetter label that was the least expensive full face MX helmet we carried at $65, a Moto Star was a couple hundred. Odds are the EPS liner was identical material. They did cheap out on the liner fabric with some low buck synthetic. You think it wasn't up to the standards of the Moto Star? You think a company as large as Bell is, would take that risk?

The whole gist of the article back then was to show all the misconceptions about what was safe. Seems any major manufacturer will have safe product, be it AFX, Vega, Z1R, or others like them. Then there actually are the low line Snell certified ones, like my polycarbonate HJC road helmet.

So, one sure way to quality in safety is to buy the big buck helmet. The other is to know what makes them safe and why, then know about the manufacturer of the helmet of interest.
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95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
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