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Old 02-08-2013, 08:29 AM   #1846
eakins
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Originally Posted by Mobiker View Post
The bottom line is it will probably be months before we know what the fate of the Terra and Strada is unless they are simply terminated in the near future.
i sure hope not as the Terra is the best 650 dual-sport on the market for the price point and is a ton of value. it's where I hope the rest of the existing 650s head: better suspension & motor w/ FI.

if KTM does indeed keep the bike but swap the motor, the Rotax powered ones could be very deriable as it's a sweet reliable motor.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:48 AM   #1847
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Originally Posted by mario33 View Post
Thats speculation again. No factual grounds whatsoever, i.e. spam. And even plain lies (its not BMW own engine, its Rotax).

You seem to like negative aspects, kind of boring winter, huh ? Yeah, we finally got your point. No need to put another 10 pages here convincing us.

This thread was crap long before BMW dumped Husky anyway...
You are wrong. It is the wishful thinking and disregarding of facts that draw me back. Here is a fact. Rotax originally helped design and manufactured this engine at the request of BMW and was paid to do so. Rotax has not manufactured it in several years. Loncin manufacturers this engine. The whole design of this engine from the crank up is new. It is a BMW engine to do and use as they choose.

I can't foretell the future, just voicing what I am concerned about when deciding to buy one. I think it is something a lot of potential buyers should consider instead of relying on some anonymous voice who never explain how they come to some of their decisions or worse yet expouse "facts" that are just wrong.

Now I am done.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:00 AM   #1848
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There are enough differences between the TR650 engine and the BMW engine that Loncin would have to set up a new production line in order to build it. This would include forges for the crank and piston and die moulding equipment for the cylinder head. The costs to set up this production line would not be small so Loncin would require a contract with Husky guaranteeing sufficient sales of the engine to cover their costs and eventually make a reasonable profit. The term of such a contract would run for at least several years. BMW would be a stakeholder in this contract and would receive a royalty in return for their proprietary rights on the engine. After the contract was established BMW would not have the authority to unilaterally alter its terms. When BMW sold Husky to Peirer the contract would have been included in the sale and the Peirer owned company would be obligated to continue purchasing the engine from Loncin. Anybody who suggests BMW could terminate the contract at their will and thus kill the TR650 is not being realistic, and neither is anybody who suggests that Peirer would terminate the production of an extremely promising bike and then face a lawsuit from Loncin who would undoubtedly insist that Husky honor the contract and continue to purchase the TR650 engine.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:35 AM   #1849
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Loncin is one of the largest motorcylce manufacturers in the world http://bikeadvice.in/visit-loncin-mo...ongqing-china/. Not only do they have a line to produce the X Rotax engine, they have one for the Rotax designed 800 engine. I wonder why?

The largest and fastest growing market for Motorcycles is China, India and south east Asia.

The first order of business is business. KTM, BMW and the Japanese manufacturers not only go to them to lower cost, they go there to gain an entry point to those customers. Those partnerships allow them access denied if they stayed in Europe.

Bajaj sold over 900,000 bikes last year, some of which were designed by KTM and that number is growing. Do you think a few thousand Terra's matter that much?

What you are going to see is bikes that have low mark up made in China, India and Thailand. Only the most expensive bikes will continue to be made in Europe and the USA.

This is opinion. I don't think Husqvarna makes money on the Terra/Strada. You ever think about how they can be priced $500 more than a KLR. That bike is 20 years old, a simple design whose R&R was paid off years ago. I think they did just to increase market share with new customers.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:55 AM   #1850
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Thought I was on ADVrider...must of clicked the wrong clickty..............

The "NEW" Husky dealership in Birmingham AL is not a place I want to deal with. Anyone have any experience with the ones in Mississippi or North Georgia? Want to test ride a Terra.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:17 AM   #1851
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very good point on the engine. Not sure if BMW owns the exclusive rights to the 650 Rotax thumper? Anyone know that?
It's really more a Husky engine not a BMW engine in a Husky, but if it's BMW's exclusively then KTM needed to get access to it through negotiation and maybe pay a small royalty per engine.

In the end BMW wanted out and KTM is buying a bike which is the best seller in the line. It's in everyone's best interest to get the deal done. BMW wanted to sell asap and KTM is not gonna pay for a dead-end technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by farp View Post
There are enough differences between the TR650 engine and the BMW engine that Loncin would have to set up a new production line in order to build it. This would include forges for the crank and piston and die moulding equipment for the cylinder head. The costs to set up this production line would not be small so Loncin would require a contract with Husky guaranteeing sufficient sales of the engine to cover their costs and eventually make a reasonable profit. The term of such a contract would run for at least several years. BMW would be a stakeholder in this contract and would receive a royalty in return for their proprietary rights on the engine. After the contract was established BMW would not have the authority to unilaterally alter its terms. When BMW sold Husky to Peirer the contract would have been included in the sale and the Peirer owned company would be obligated to continue purchasing the engine from Loncin. Anybody who suggests BMW could terminate the contract at their will and thus kill the TR650 is not being realistic, and neither is anybody who suggests that Peirer would terminate the production of an extremely promising bike and then face a lawsuit from Loncin who would undoubtedly insist that Husky honor the contract and continue to purchase the TR650 engine.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:25 AM   #1852
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Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
This is opinion. I don't think Husqvarna makes money on the Terra/Strada. You ever think about how they can be priced $500 more than a KLR. That bike is 20 years old, a simple design whose R&R was paid off years ago. I think they did just to increase market share with new customers.
No doubt Husky wanted market penetration with the TR pricing in the US. I'm betting it does go up some.
I'd say kawi is loving the KLR because the company profit is very high % wise on the KLR.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:26 AM   #1853
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i had a nice talk with several multi-line bmw dealers about this. they said they could pick up other brands if they wanted to & were available. yes separate space in the showroom floor ie bmw bikes in this corner and others in that corner. the bmw corner is branded nicely and all.

maybe the difference is if this is a brand new bmw dealership vrs an existing dealership that has already multi-lines. bmw will not let you open a new store as multi-line. they want it stand-alone. not sure.
I have a friend who went through this with his BMW franchise. In his case he had two lines and wanted to add another. BMW required a 'complete' remodel to better showcase their motorcycles and pushing the floor space for other brands to ridiculously small portion. If it was a 'new' dealership it was mandated as only BMW brands in the one building. He ended up leasing another building for the other line. No way he could justify the expense of what BMW contract required.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:37 AM   #1854
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(Loncin is one of the largest motorcycle manufacturers in the world. Not only do they have a line to produce the X Rotax engine, they have one for the Rotax designed 800 engine. I wonder why?)
They need those lines to build the engines. Now they also have a line to build the TR650 engine.

(The largest and fastest growing market for Motorcycles is China, India and south east Asia)
Agreed. What has this got to do with the termination of the TR650.

(The first order of business is business. KTM, BMW and the Japanese manufacturers not only go to them to lower cost, they go there to gain an entry point to those customers. Those partnerships allow them access denied if they stayed in Europe. )
Agreed. What has this got to do with the termination of the TR650

(Bajaj sold over 900,000 bikes last year, some of which were designed by KTM and that number is growing. Do you think a few thousand Terra's matter that much?)
Yes I do, especially when you consider that the Terra has been available to the public for less than a year and is selling as fast as they can manufacture them. It's not about how many they've sold to date, it's about how many they expect to sell in the years to come, and I think they're serious about challenging KLR as the worlds’ bestselling dual sport motorcycle.

(What you are going to see is bikes that have low mark up made in China, India and Thailand. Only the most expensive bikes will continue to be made in Europe and the USA.)
Agreed. It wouldn't surprise me to see Bajaj involved in the manufacture of the TR650, in fact I suspect that's what will happen.

(This is opinion. I don't think Husqvarna makes money on the Terra/Strada. You ever think about how they can be priced $500 more than a KLR. That bike is 20 years old, a simple design whose R&R was paid off years ago. I think they did just to increase market share with new customers.)
I think that Husky makes money on the TR650, just not as much as Kawasaki does with the KLR. I agree that Husky set a low selling price on the TR650 just to increase market share with new customers - and it's a strategy that's working. When the rest of the world realizes what a great bike the TR650 is the demand will go up and so will the price (but it will still be a better bang for your buck than the KLR), so if you're thinking about buying one now's the time to do it.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:38 AM   #1855
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Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
You are wrong about that. BMW may let a dealer carry other lines, but there is supposed to be a showroom division. BMW can pull their models if they want, and it's been done. I went through the process to take over a BMW store and combine it with Yamaha. They wanted a seperate showroom for BMW's and seperate signage as well. I never went through with it because I was having a hard time finding the right real estate. The fellow who took it over moved it to NH and called in Max BMW. Brilliant move and a very successful BMW only store.
A man who knows his BMW history
6 or 7 years ago this was all over the press. Case in point: CAL BMW, a major northern California dealer was forced to segregate Triumph from their BMW showroom. They built a separate showroom for Triumph, but many others could not afford this. Word was this shut down MANY BMW multi dealers ... or forced them to drop BMW altogether. Many dropped other brands and kept BMW. Bottom line, a super disruptive decision from BMW AG.

During this same period BMW was insisting that bike dealers integrate with BMW car dealers. This actually happened at San Francisco BMW. A huge failure that hurt BOTH Car and Bike sales. NONE of this went over well ... and in a few years BMW quietly backed away from most of these forced policies. BMW San Francisco is now separate from the Car dealership.
Thank God. It was horrible.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:44 AM   #1856
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Originally Posted by Aprilia View Post
I have a friend who went through this with his BMW franchise. In his case he had two lines and wanted to add another. BMW required a 'complete' remodel to better showcase their motorcycles and pushing the floor space for other brands to ridiculously small portion. If it was a 'new' dealership it was mandated as only BMW brands in the one building. He ended up leasing another building for the other line. No way he could justify the expense of what BMW contract required.
could be the people I talked did not actually go through the process but just thought they could pick up a line like that. very nasty policy from BMW IMO, but you don't move forward in biz w/o being somewhat cut throat.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:48 AM   #1857
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Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
You are wrong. It is the wishful thinking and disregarding of facts that draw me back. Here is a fact. Rotax originally helped design and manufactured this engine at the request of BMW and was paid to do so. Rotax has not manufactured it in several years. Loncin manufacturers this engine. The whole design of this engine from the crank up is new. It is a BMW engine to do and use as they choose.

I can't foretell the future, just voicing what I am concerned about when deciding to buy one. I think it is something a lot of potential buyers should consider instead of relying on some anonymous voice who never explain how they come to some of their decisions or worse yet expouse "facts" that are just wrong.

Now I am done.
Spot on. It's not exactly a secret that Loncin has been producing both the
G650 motors and the revised and upgraded Terra and Strada motors. Rotax has been out of the loop for probably 4 or 5 years now. Common knowledge that is verified in every review I've read for the last five years.

Maybe KLX and Mario have something interesting to add to this thread rather than Bomb throwing? Or .. maybe they should start their OWN thread ... entitled:

TERRA OWNERS ONLY THREAD! See how that goes.

There are lots of riders new to this bike, they are here to learn all they can. It's history and future are important to anyone with half a brain who is seriously considering this machine. I say ... let it roll.

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Old 02-08-2013, 11:49 AM   #1858
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A man who knows his BMW history
6 or 7 years ago this was all over the press. Case in point: CAL BMW, a major northern California dealer was forced to segregate Triumph from their BMW showroom. They built a separate showroom for Triumph, but many others could not afford this. Word was this shut down MANY BMW multi dealers ... or forced them to drop BMW altogether. Many dropped other brands and kept BMW. Bottom line, a super disruptive decision from BMW AG.

During this same period BMW was insisting that bike dealers integrate with BMW car dealers. This actually happened at San Francisco BMW. A huge failure that hurt BOTH Car and Bike sales. NONE of this went over well ... and in a few years BMW quietly backed away from most of these forced policies. BMW San Francisco is now separate from the Car dealership.
Thank God. It was horrible.
Then I wonder how Foothills BMW (who carry Triumph too) and Northern Colo Euro (who just moved to a new building this month & also have Ducati and Triumph) can have all their bikes on the same big showroom floor.

Did they negotiate more intensely w/ BMW and basically say piss off BMW if you don't like it? While other dealers needed to fold? Any ideas???

The BMW dealer in Grand Junstion, CO has 1 showroom too with BMW & KTM. Does Colorado have a law forbidding BMW's practice as that's atleast 3 BMW dealers who share floor space. Or has BMW backed down on that practice???
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:53 AM   #1859
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Sorry TR650 owners. The subject needs to get back to this wonderful bike.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:17 PM   #1860
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
Then I wonder how Foothills BMW (who carry Triumph too) and Northern Colo Euro (who just moved to a new building this month & also have Ducati and Triumph) can have all their bikes on the same big showroom floor.

Did they negotiate more intensely w/ BMW and basically say piss off BMW if you don't like it? While other dealers needed to fold? Any ideas???

The BMW dealer in Grand Junstion, CO has 1 showroom too with BMW & KTM. Does Colorado have a law forbidding BMW's practice as that's atleast 3 BMW dealers who share floor space. Or has BMW backed down on that practice???
As I said in my post above ... BMW backed off these Draconian policies.
My inside man for info passed away ... so not sure of the ins/outs regards
corporate thinking. Suffice to say there have been MAJOR corporate wide shake ups at BMW in the last several years ... most recently just late last year. From CEO on down. Herr Von Kunnheim was re-posted to BMW Siberia or something ... just what he deserved!
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