ktm 350exc vs 500exc vs wr250r

[montesa_vr]

Originally Posted by Off the grid

I believe the WRR is 305lbs, same as the 690.

Not even close. Both motorcycles full of fuel:
KTM 690 Enduro, 336 lbs (Cycle World, June 2009)
Yamaha WR250R, 301 lbs (Motorcyclist, Oct. 2008)

[bobnoxious67]

Originally Posted by ADVNCW

Interesting analysis. Cost is the main thing holding me back. I have the money, I just do not want to be stupid and immature in how money is spent. And why do some KTM owners (or former) turn into such ????

Typical KTM zealots here sound like some religious fanatics.

Holy FUCKING SHIT!!!

Have you looked in a mirror lately? You've got everybody beat 10:1 with your blathering on about your 230 wonder bike in every post!

[LukasM]

Originally Posted by crankshaft

I've never heard KTM mention one way or the other honestly. I guess we can blame it on the ADV parrot. How many bikes compete in Dakar with FI?
BMW, Husky, Ape, Yamaha, Berg or did they all go back to carbs?

Well, all rally bikes that KTM ever built until now have been carbed, if there is any change we would probably have heard about it in the Racing subforum.

Aprilia is FI, don't think Husky/BMW ever built a factory rally bike but Speedbrain ones are FI, Berg never had a rally bike but privateer efforts on 70° are FI, Yamaha never built a factory rally bike but Yam Europe supported efforts as well as JVO bike were mostly carbed WRs with the odd privateer using a FI'd YZ450. New Honda rally bike is FI.

I guess reliable FI systems are possible - for the most part - but KTM does not feel like they are quite there yet. Maybe the head honcho who decides owned a FI'd 690 at some point and got frustrated?

[crankshaft]

Originally Posted by LukasM

Well, all rally bikes that KTM ever built until now have been carbed, if there is any change we would probably have heard about it in the Racing subforum.

Aprilia is FI, don't think Husky/BMW ever built a factory rally bike but Speedbrain ones are FI, Berg never had a rally bike but privateer efforts on 70° are FI, Yamaha never built a factory rally bike but Yam Europe supported efforts as well as JVO bike were mostly carbed WRs with the odd privateer using a FI'd YZ450. New Honda rally bike is FI.

I guess reliable FI systems are possible - for the most part - but KTM does not feel like they are quite there yet. Maybe the head honcho who decides owned a FI'd 690 at some point and got frustrated?

Well, that could be true. We all know I've had my 690
Issues but that should all be behind me I'm pretty sure Helders YZ was FI

[jimhaleyscomet]

Originally Posted by Foot dragger

Often times,knowing what you are doing can make all the difference.
Why is a KTM screw or bolt easier to cross thread then any other?
The oil transfer issue is 1 seal behind the clutch,its an hour job even by a home mechanic. If KTM's dont turn,just how did they win all 4 off road championships in the US?Jetting the bike is an hour job also.Gearing gets changed before you ride it in the dirt.
Dirtbike riders have been working on their own bikes for many years,if I had to take mine to the shop for maintenance I would never get to ride the thing,on any dirt/dual purpose bike.
Its better that you ride a WR250R.

RANT WARNING - Proceed at your own risk.
I never said KTM's don't turn. The original poster has a a 650 and said he wanted something more maneuverable. The several 250 dual sports I have ridden FEEL more nimble than 450's I have ridden (Honda, KTM, Yamaha) even when the bigger bikes weight less. I don't know why. Perhaps it has something to do with that big piston's momentum on the engine high in the frame?

And for the record I have no problem changing the oil on my bikes. I installed the "missing" fan, changed sprockets, pulled off the pollution junk, removed the exhaust restriction, rejetted and more all with no guidance whatsoever from KTM or the selling dealer. In hindsight I would have done it all sooner had the selling dealer known anything about KTM450exc's. But still I would have had the oil transfer issue first from the engine to tranny and later from the tranny to engine. Changing oil every 200 miles (IN BOTH OIL SUMPS) to find out if there is any oil in the engine (or far too much) was a royal pain in the tail but it was the only way to finally document what was happening to the oil (going from one case to another). I chouldn't trust the KTM450exc sight glass (according to the forums). Plus I had to tip the bike over and back to get all the oil out and even then not all the oil came out (but gasoline did get all over the garage floor and that is a good design?). I imagine the 2012 KTM's are better as even KTM recognized their mistake and returned to a single sump. Of course those of us with the faulty design are stuck with it unless we would like to pony up another 5K to the folks at KTM or are willing to take apart the engine on the weekends instead of riding.

Yet another typical maintenance more difficult than all my other bikes was changing the air filter. Why just two flat surfaces that slide all over the place buried deep in plastic? Since you could not visually check the mating surfaces, would it be so hard to have a ridge so the two parts "clicked" together so there was no way to accidentally leave a gap and feed dirty air to your engine?

Perhaps KTM exc's are no harder to maintain than any other race dirt bike. But they are much harder to maintain than other dual sports and the original poster might consider that the hours add up fast if you do any street riding (as the original poster mentioned he would). And don't look to KTM or my local dealers to suggest reasonable maintenance intervals for non race conditions. Yeh, just go to the internet and experiment on your new $9K race bike. Should you change oil at 15 hours (and then every 30 hrs) or go 600 miles and change it (as the dealers recommended)? Beat's me.

I have heard that KTM makes great two strokes. I have heard they are great for winning races. Heck, I even enjoyed riding my KTM450exc. The massive available power was tremendous and the relatively light weight was great as well. What I did not enjoy the constant worry that either the engine or the transmission would run dry and crater and the constant worry that KTM would not back their product.

If you are comparing KTM exc's to a WR250r then just be aware what you are taking on. WR's have been on the market for years and there is a tremendous amount of fellow owners with the same bike you have that can assist you debug the bike. KTM builds a bike for a few years then changes it to make it better. Great for innovation but not so great for reliability. And it makes it much more difficult when you are trying to find folks who have corrected the same problem you are having.

So yes it is better that I ride a WR250r and it is also better that other folks ride KTM exc's. To each his own.

But enough of this, I am going riding.

[rickypanecatyl]

Originally Posted by crankshaft

You're a bad researcher. Even my Wife knows that KTM's come from the dealer needing a re-jet and a gear change and She doesn't ride. Next time you need a bike, I'll do some research for you.

Disagree. KTM works hard to market their bikes as "ready to race" and veterans on here familiar with the "intense maintenance schedule as compared to a daily driving cage" are used to that and often will honestly say they did nothing to their bike that made it 800 hours before a rebuild, because in their minds "the known fixes" (as hilighted by the "whiners" ) and regular maintenance are considered "nothing". BUT it isn't that obvious to a newbie.

At least cut Jim some slack - of course it's great to know how to work on your own bike, but it isn't crazy for the busy person with $ to think that the dealer should know what to do and be able to take care of it for you.

By the way, MY WIFE knows KTM only uses carbs in their rally bikes and that they were still running them in the Moroccan rally. Maybe she could do some research for you?

[Off the grid]

Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl

Disagree. KTM works hard to market their bikes as "ready to race" and veterans on here familiar with the "intense maintenance schedule as compared to a daily driving cage" are used to that and often will honestly say they did nothing to their bike that made it 800 hours before a rebuild, because in their minds "the known fixes" (as hilighted by the "whiners" ) and regular maintenance are considered "nothing". BUT it isn't that obvious to a newbie.

At least cut Jim some slack - of course it's great to know how to work on your own bike, but it isn't crazy for the busy person with $ to think that the dealer should know what to do and be able to take care of it for you.

By the way, MY WIFE knows KTM only uses carbs in their rally bikes and that they were still running them in the Moroccan rally. Maybe she could do some research for you?.

I dunno, pretty much anyone knows when you buy a brand new bike you need to re-jet it, de-smog and do a lot of adjusting and fiddling to get it dialed in right.

"Ready to race" means that an EXC can be driven granny-slow through the woods (me) or hit the Hare Scramble circuit. (few of my buddies)

[ADVNCW]

Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl

I'd like to throw out my thoughts on bike price in the hope of changing enough peoples minds that manufacturers follow up with more bikes in the high quality reliable "niche."

Here in Malaysia where the per capita income is roughly 25% of what it is in America, people commonly pay over 10 grand US$ for a bike - I suppose that would be like Americans commonly spending over $40,000 for a bike. However at the same time it isn't financially irresponsible as we easily average 8X as many miles per bike as the average American. (Malaysians bikers are in absolute shock when I tell them about "craigslist" where you can offer find a DR400 8 years old with less than 10,000 miles on it!) Thus we only spend on average 50% of our total income on bikes.

There are not too many bikes in the WR250R category; a bike that the manufactures tried to make with reasonable quality (certainly not excellent) and yet at the same time reliable. KTM690 tried but failed miserably... the Husky


No doubt the KTM 500EXC is a much cooler bike than the WR250R. But consider the price difference. At present the KTM is aproximately 7X more expensive than the WR250R in "REAL" money. Reliable info is tough to get, but a pretty good guess would be on average you could make it 50,000 miles on a WR250R with the same amount of repair and maintenance you would spend after 10,000 miles on the KTM500.

Or in other words:

WR250R $7,000/50,000 miles or .14 cents per mile of ownership
KTM500EXC - $10,000/10,000 miles or 1 dollar per mile of ownership

The point of this post is not to debate how accurate my guestimates are, but just to encourage bike buyers to think this way before complaining about a bikes price. If my wishes came true KTM would put out a KTMEXC450 "reliable" that might be down on power 5%, up on weight 10 lbs, last as long as a WR250R and perhaps cost $15,000. It would still weigh much, much less than the WR250R and have much more power. That would make it cost 2X as much as the WRR and 3 1/2 times less than the normal EXC in real money.
I'm confident the technology is there to build such bikes but consumers have to understand the value of said bike before manufactures would risk building it.

Interesting analysis. THANKS rickypanecatyl. Cost is the main thing holding me back. I have the money, I just do not want to be stupid and immature in how money is spent. And why do some KTM owners (or former) turn into such ????

Typical KTM zealots here sound like some religious fanatics.

Quite amusing, or puzzling (what is missing in their life that they need to do that anonomously here???) the verbal abuse or put down thrown by KTM groupies here. Some fat wuss guy who does not even ride dirt nor owns a KTM posts all over this forum spewing all sort of *expert* bs Then these guys blaming the poor guy who paid so much then the fricken' motorcycle did not work! That sucks, makes KTM and the dealer look bad.

Yep, I went in and spent time getting a quote and looking over KTMs. They look FANTASTIC! But I do not think I want to spend that much, I have fun on a much less expensive motorcycle and like it fine.

Great if guys like their KTMs or Yamaha, Suzuki, or Kawasaki, whatever, glad you guys like your motorcycles. The aggro/ critical words thrown anonomously here by punks are uneeded- stop wasting you breath.

[crazybrit]

Originally Posted by ADVNCW

Interesting analysis. THANKS rickypanecatyl. Cost is the main thing holding me back. I have the money, I just do not want to be stupid and immature in how money is spent. And why do some KTM owners (or former) turn into such ????

Typical KTM zealots here sound like some religious fanatics.

didn't you already post this once, like 7 posts ago


FWIW my 07 450 exc has been a fantastically reliable bike. I think I have close to 7000 all offroad miles on it at this point.

[rickypanecatyl]

Originally Posted by crazybrit

didn't you already post this once, like 7 posts ago


FWIW my 07 450 exc has been a fantastically reliable bike. I think I have close to 7000 all offroad miles on it at this point.

I don't mean to disagree with your use of "fantasically reliable" - it does mean a lot to be able to do 7,000 miles with out any problems. And I think most "Westerners" would be really happy with 7,000 trouble free miles on a dirt bike.

However most Asians and many Latins and Africans approach riding differently. The same bike you have fun on, you use to commute to work every day. I'm an American from Washington and at first I wouldn't have thought it was possible to have fun "racing" on CRF230L type bikes but the truth is, it can be pretty fun. They have enduro classes like that where all the competitors are "racing" on their daily rides. WE may end up with 7,000 purely off road miles in a year or two but 5X that many in street miles.

I don't want to belittle your experience of 7,000 trouble free dirt miles in any way but the realilty is:

1. 7,000 miles is not many miles.
2. "Dirt miles" are far easier on the engine than street miles (unless of course it's really dusty and you don't have a good filter. For the life of the engine that would probably equate to less than 3,500 freeway miles.

I'm not one of those Americans that when I come back home I tell everyone Asia, or Africa or whatever is better. But what I've learned in the world of riding from them is how "poorer" people economically who love to ride can still ride when bikes cost 2X as much. A common dual sport bike in Thailand is the 2 stroke Honda CRM 250. It easily averages 5X the longevity of the average EXC200. All the time I see them running with the clocks broken at 70+k km! And so guys avearaging 1/2 the income can still pay 2X the price for a bike and come out ahead.

The point of my earlier thread was hoping that some reading it would see the value in a bike like a KTM 450 EXC but that:
Weighed 10 lbs more
Was down 5 HP
Cost 50% MORE
BUT would last 10X as long!

I'm sure it's buildable if enough people wanted it! It'd be a great idea for long distance adventures, economic hard times as well as us 3rd world countries!

[wsmc831]

Originally Posted by crazybrit

didn't you already post this once, like 7 posts ago


FWIW my 07 450 exc has been a fantastically reliable bike. I think I have close to 7000 all offroad miles on it at this point.

pfft. Everyone (who doesn't own one) knows KTM's are high strung race bikes constantly needing attention.

[crazybrit]

Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl

I don't mean to disagree with your use of "fantasically reliable" - it does mean a lot to be able to do 7,000 miles with out any problems. And I think most "Westerners" would be really happy with 7,000 trouble free miles on a dirt bike.

What was the location of the OP? I'm sure this east v west stuff is deeply fascinating but I'm unsure of it's relevance to this thread. Also, given your past history here with your KTM threads you'll excuse me if I take your comments with a large pinch of ....

[VxZeroKnots]

Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl

2. "Dirt miles" are far easier on the engine than street miles (unless of course it's really dusty and you don't have a good filter. For the life of the engine that would probably equate to less than 3,500 freeway miles.

Uh, yeah no.

We obviously have VERY different ideas of what dirt riding means.

[rickypanecatyl]

OP already got his bike many posts ago remember?

My bad experience with the KTM 690 doesn't change the fact you got 7,000 miles on your bike, nor does it change the fact that 70,000 miles is more miles than 7,000 nor does it in any way affect the point of my post.

My point was I personally would be willing to pay 50% more money for a "performance" bike slightly up in weight/down in power but lasting 10X longer.

[SBG]

Originally Posted by longtallsally

The 500EXC is really what I want, but $10k is a spicy meatball for a trail bike.

So why not save $2000 and get a Husqvarna Te511? I know reviews for the KTM show it to be top dog, even compared to the Beta, but $2000 can buy a whole lot of accessories.