ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Layin' down tracks
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-16-2012, 09:22 PM   #1
FredRydr OP
Danger: Keep Back 500 Ft.
 
FredRydr's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Carlisle Pennsylvania USA
Oddometer: 2,519
More private roads and driveways on maps

Google maps have included driveways (even mine!) in their maps for a few years, but I see Garmin maps are adding them (now mine!) to their updates. Today was a real hassle making u-turns in forests and farms when I reach gates and "private" signs. Some are likely abandoned rights-of-way reverted to private ownership, but why is Garmin digging those up and adding them? The property owners aren't helping by installing those trendy signs that look like local government street signs.

One property owner near Gettysburg PA has mounted a pair of signs that say "Your GPS Is Wrong. Private Road." I have noticed cars coming up my driveway and turning around more often lately, too.

Fred
FredRydr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 05:43 AM   #2
Twilight Error
Going nowhere slowly
 
Twilight Error's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: The Submarine Mines
Oddometer: 22,566
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
Google maps have included driveways (even mine!) in their maps for a few years, but I see Garmin maps are adding them (now mine!) to their updates. Today was a real hassle making u-turns in forests and farms when I reach gates and "private" signs. Some are likely abandoned rights-of-way reverted to private ownership, but why is Garmin digging those up and adding them? The property owners aren't helping by installing those trendy signs that look like local government street signs.

One property owner near Gettysburg PA has mounted a pair of signs that say "Your GPS Is Wrong. Private Road." I have noticed cars coming up my driveway and turning around more often lately, too.

Fred
Its going to happen more often now that we don't need to actually get out on the ground and verify the existence of a road. There is no way for Navteq (Garmin's map vendor) or Google to distinguish between a private or public road when looking at a satellite photo.
Twilight Error is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 06:23 AM   #3
FredRydr OP
Danger: Keep Back 500 Ft.
 
FredRydr's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Carlisle Pennsylvania USA
Oddometer: 2,519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Error View Post
There is no way for Navteq (Garmin's map vendor) or Google to distinguish between a private or public road when looking at a satellite photo.
That's right. But how did they conclude which were roads only three years ago and longer? More tedious, more accurate and more expensive methods, no doubt. And besides, they're the ones taking all the street-view photos.

I submit they're being lazy (i.e. cheap) when using satellite photos and their software that interprets them. Perhaps one of the details they've dumped to reduce expense is comparing new roads with municipal records for dedication of public rights of way.

Fred

FredRydr screwed with this post 09-17-2012 at 06:30 AM
FredRydr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 06:29 AM   #4
Twilight Error
Going nowhere slowly
 
Twilight Error's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: The Submarine Mines
Oddometer: 22,566
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
That's right. But how did they conclude which were roads only three years ago and longer? More tedious and more accurate methods, no doubt. And besides, they're the ones taking all the street-view photos.

I submit they're being lazy (i.e. cheap) when using satellite photos and their software that interprets them. Perhaps one of the details they've dumped to reduce expense is comparing new roads with municipal records for dedication of public rights of way.

Fred
The latest CN mapset is ~$80 direct from Garmin. Would you pay 2 or 3x that for a map that didn't have the private road static? It takes eyes looking at maps and driving out to verify information, that costs money.
Twilight Error is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 04:11 AM   #5
9Dave
Bazinga!
 
9Dave's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Central Ohio
Oddometer: 12,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
Google maps have included driveways (even mine!) in their maps for a few years, but I see Garmin maps are adding them (now mine!) to their updates. Today was a real hassle making u-turns in forests and farms when I reach gates and "private" signs. Some are likely abandoned rights-of-way reverted to private ownership, but why is Garmin digging those up and adding them? The property owners aren't helping by installing those trendy signs that look like local government street signs.

One property owner near Gettysburg PA has mounted a pair of signs that say "Your GPS Is Wrong. Private Road." I have noticed cars coming up my driveway and turning around more often lately, too.

Fred
How about some examples of what you are talking about?

Navteq has included private roads on mapsets for years. Roads & Rec and Topo have had them.

And it doesn't make sense that a GPS would route someone up your driveway, unless I guess if it goes through to another road.

I've used R&R a bunch to scout old roads. And I know that some people think that because a road is not maintained, it's not a road.

That said - there definitely are some private drives in the map data, as there are other features. And they can have valid uses in navigating (shopping centers, apartment complexes, etc.)
__________________


dunno.....
9Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 04:59 PM   #6
Cpt. Ron
Advrider #128
 
Cpt. Ron's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Sacramento, CA
Oddometer: 3,197
Here's a good example. A couple of years ago, going solo northwest from Red Bluff, CA, I took Vestal Road. Here is a legitimate section of the road that is open to the public. It is dirt and lonely most of the time:

http://goo.gl/maps/I2ZLZ

Note the farmyard the road goes through.

Not too far away, there is another "road", Stewart Ranch Road. Not only on Google maps and Garmin, but also my USGS topo maps. It too is dirt (well traveled) and quite lonely):

http://goo.gl/maps/t9eJ7

Note the farmyard the "road" goes through. Except that this is a private road/driveway. The gates were open (lots of ranch gates out on the real roads, too). There is even a line of power poles following the road, so it really does look legit. Except it ain't. Upon reaching the river to the north, there was no way out. No bridge, no low water crossing, and definitely no continuing where I wanted to go. So back I go. The owner was in the road/driveway, looking non-too happy. Something along the lines of "You're not from around here, are you....?" to "What is your major malfunction!?" It took some time to calm him down and stop accusing me of being a meth-head (I'm on a 950 Adventure and still have all of my teeth....). I didn't argue, I admitted I screwed up. And I apologized. A lot. It still took time for him to 'let me go'. Upon my return trip through the area, I stopped to drop off a six-pack of beer. His gate was closed and locked, so I just left it there with a note.
__________________
Cpt. Ron

"I don't know what you do, but I know what I do, and I don't do that." --Uncle Doug, R.I.P.
"Without the possibility of death, adventure is not possible"--Reinhold Messner
Cpt. Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 05:26 PM   #7
FredRydr OP
Danger: Keep Back 500 Ft.
 
FredRydr's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Carlisle Pennsylvania USA
Oddometer: 2,519
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9Dave View Post
How about some examples of what you are talking about?
Why? I don't know what good it will do you, but ride to the intersection of Cold Springs Rd and Suncrest Lane in Orrtanna PA (N39 48.880 W77 22.590) and ride on down Suncrest Lane to Mt. Hope Road. Then report back.

How about another? Go to Snyder Ave. and TreeGo Lane in McClure PA (N40 43.515 W77 15.918), and head up TreeGo to PA 235. This will be a good one. We'll wait for your report.

I'm not going to invite the ADVrider masses up my driveway just because it was, like many of my neighbors' driveways and farm lanes, added to the recent Garmin/NavTeq map update.

Fred
FredRydr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 04:12 AM   #8
9Dave
Bazinga!
 
9Dave's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Central Ohio
Oddometer: 12,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
Why? I don't know what good it will do you, but ride to the intersection of Cold Springs Rd and Suncrest Lane in Orrtanna PA (N39 48.880 W77 22.590) and ride on down Suncrest Lane to Mt. Hope Road. Then report back.
My point is that while some of the "roads" shown in map data are private drives - some are actually public roads or rights of way that landowners will tell you are not. Some of the most fun places to ride are the ones that are still public roads but are unmaintained.

Looking at Google Maps, they show your first example as a named road, the second one as an unnamed road.

Driveways aside - in Ohio, the best way to verify whether or not something is really a road is to look at the County Engineer's data.
__________________


dunno.....
9Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 06:33 AM   #9
Albie
Kool Aid poisoner
 
Albie's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: NWA
Oddometer: 9,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Error View Post
The latest CN mapset is ~$80 direct from Garmin. Would you pay 2 or 3x that for a map that didn't have the private road static? It takes eyes looking at maps and driving out to verify information, that costs money.
I would gladly pay that much more for ACCURATE map databases. Why else would I spend $600 on a mapping GPS to begin with?
__________________
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.

Another day, another foot injury!
Albie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 06:33 AM   #10
BKMLWR
Wondering around...
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: North Carmel
Oddometer: 4,466
In Maine if you look at the many roads running off RT1 in the northern area of Maine you will find they are just tractor trails running along the fields...I would think these would be obvious with a quick check on google earth...
__________________
Sometimes I get off the bike before it has come to a complete stop....
Another Proud Small Scale Faker......
Praise You In This Storm
LifeSong
BKMLWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 09:20 AM   #11
wbbnm
Beastly Adventurer
 
wbbnm's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Abq NM
Oddometer: 1,931
I have found thru lots of experience that the most minor roads on the various Garmin map products are closed if they are on private land.

Thus when planning trips I check land ownership in areas I plan to ride minor roads.

I use Benchmark maps a lot and sometimes BLM maps.

Generally named or numbered roads are okay on private land, but this doesn't always work either. I am especially leery of roads that have the word "Ranch" in the name.

I also check my planned routes on Google earth and try to avoid situations where a road runs right thru the middle of a ranch complex.
wbbnm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 10:04 AM   #12
Cpt. Ron
Advrider #128
 
Cpt. Ron's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Sacramento, CA
Oddometer: 3,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbbnm View Post

I also check my planned routes on Google earth and try to avoid situations where a road runs right thru the middle of a ranch complex.
And the point some of us are trying to make is that if you follow your thinking, you're missing out on open, legal public right-of-ways. Like my first example above.
__________________
Cpt. Ron

"I don't know what you do, but I know what I do, and I don't do that." --Uncle Doug, R.I.P.
"Without the possibility of death, adventure is not possible"--Reinhold Messner
Cpt. Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 11:24 AM   #13
mcnut
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Location: Bakersfield CA & Sammamish WA
Oddometer: 1,360
This has been debated for years, well before GPS.

My preference is for the map makers (paper or electronic) to depict all routes which are passable via an over the highway vehicle (drawing the line at rock-crawlers and trials bikes). I don't believe they should choose to withhold map detail because the route at some point traverses private lands. Many land owners allow public access (resulting in a tax break for some) and many don't, a status which is ever changing.

In the west (think UT, WY, AZ) travel is dependent on routes which use public right-of-ways across private land as well as private roads being open (Leave the gate as you found it!) to the public.

Another huge problem which needs to be nipped in the bud is the blatant practice of private land owners illegal posting routes on public lands and public right-of-ways as "PRIVATE", "CLOSED" and "NO TRESPASSING" in an effort to discourage their lawful use. It is accepted practice that a sign refers to the area behind the sign, thus by orienting the 'PRIVATE PROPERTY, NO TRESPASSING" sign perpendicular (90 deg.) to a legal route, when it legally should be parallel, land owners (intentionally) convey the message the route is closed to the public when it is not.

I do see a problem when questionable roads, be they private or just condition, are used by GPS auto-routing software. Now that many maps sets are very detailed and support auto-routing this becomes a bigger issue. You could not believe some of the GPS routing I have seen generated using logging roads in WA! One solution might be to give the GPS user an option (avoidance) to not route via minor dirt roads (we already have "Avoid Dirt Roads).

Bruce

mcnut screwed with this post 09-19-2012 at 01:34 PM
mcnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 04:32 PM   #14
wbbnm
Beastly Adventurer
 
wbbnm's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Abq NM
Oddometer: 1,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt. Ron View Post
And the point some of us are trying to make is that if you follow your thinking, you're missing out on open, legal public right-of-ways. Like my first example above.
I ride because it is fun and I enjoy it. I do not enjoy dealing with irate a**hole ranchers whether they are right or wrong. It ruins my day. And I have lots of unpleasant run-ins.

If I can possibly do it, I plan rides to avoid these confrontations and will continue to do so.

But if someone else plans the ride and thus implicitly volunteers to deal with these people, I will tag along.
wbbnm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 04:45 PM   #15
Cpt. Ron
Advrider #128
 
Cpt. Ron's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Sacramento, CA
Oddometer: 3,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbbnm View Post
I ride because it is fun and I enjoy it. I do not enjoy dealing with irate a**hole ranchers whether they are right or wrong. It ruins my day. And I have lots of unpleasant run-ins.

If I can possibly do it, I plan rides to avoid these confrontations and will continue to do so.

But if someone else plans the ride and thus implicitly volunteers to deal with these people, I will tag along.


And my first example is a perfectly legal, no issues, public right of way. According to your mind set, your planning methods would forgo traveling on such a road. Yes, you are avoiding ANY issues whatsoever. Enjoy YOUR ride.
__________________
Cpt. Ron

"I don't know what you do, but I know what I do, and I don't do that." --Uncle Doug, R.I.P.
"Without the possibility of death, adventure is not possible"--Reinhold Messner
Cpt. Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 05:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014