Evil Black Rifles and tacticool hotness

[Squelch]

What do y'all know about the Springfield SOCOM II? Is it a good rifle? How much should one expect to pay for one? There's one at the local Cabela's that looks good, but I'm not sure if it's worth getting a .308/7.62 instead of a .223/5.56 rifle. It certainly is "tacticool" as it has the rails on three sides of the barrel so I can add five or six different doodads.

[pilot]

Originally Posted by Squelch

What do y'all know about the Springfield SOCOM II? Is it a good rifle? How much should one expect to pay for one? There's one at the local Cabela's that looks good, but I'm not sure if it's worth getting a .308/7.62 instead of a .223/5.56 rifle. It certainly is "tacticool" as it has the rails on three sides of the barrel so I can add five or six different doodads.

What are they asking for it?

[CodyY]

Originally Posted by Squelch

What do y'all know about the Springfield SOCOM II? Is it a good rifle? How much should one expect to pay for one? There's one at the local Cabela's that looks good, but I'm not sure if it's worth getting a .308/7.62 instead of a .223/5.56 rifle. It certainly is "tacticool" as it has the rails on three sides of the barrel so I can add five or six different doodads.

Love em.

Theyre LOUD

[Squelch]

Originally Posted by pilot

What are they asking for it?

I can't make it back there before Saturday - you're not going to snatch it away from me, are you? They're asking $1490 or so. And for all I know it might be gone already. I stopped by there this morning on my way to somewhere else, and got talking to a guy that works there. I was actually looking at the Garands, but they weren't original enough for my taste. I saw the Springfield though, and it looked . . . appealing.

[blackberry]

2-die, 3-die, small base, ar, roll crimp ??? Too many choices.
Most of the reloads will go through a stag piston gun.
To keep my OCD in check I will probably get RCBS so the boxes match the other sets I have unless there is something better.

[rivers]

Be Afraid....















L_S_F_W

[accurate iron]

Originally Posted by blackberry

2-die, 3-die, small base, ar, roll crimp ??? Too many choices.
Most of the reloads will go through a stag piston gun.
To keep my OCD in check I will probably get RCBS so the boxes match the other sets I have unless there is something better.

I use dillon stuff, no need for small base, and you dont want to roll crimp. Get a lyman case gauge, it will help keep your QC up. You wil have to trim the brass also.
some die sets have a seperate crimp die, like lee or dillon.
Id probably recommend one of the lee sets for you, with the FCD die (3 die set). FCD stands for factory crimp.

When sizing cases, use a lanolin based sizing lube. Dillons is the best. If you dont lube the crap out of the brass, you will get a stuck case.
loading rifle, especially mil cases, is nothing like pistol, its a pain in the ass and the investment is sizable.

[FPGT72]

Pretty convenient.

So what do we call the current standard weapon(s) systems that fires the 556 that darn near everyone in the US military carries and is trained on.....and we all know just how usefull something that shoots a a "real rifle" cartridge is when fired on full auto....just so you understand that is a stupid reason...and that there are not a great many people that field a select fire rifle in a full powered cartridge....in fact I can't think off the top of my head what major power uses a full sized rifle cartridge in their "main battle rifle" anylonger. (I think I just opened myself up to just what a major power is)

Most that know me should know what side of the fence I come down on this, I am one of those people that has more than his fair share of firearms of all different flavors, from cap and ball to an "evil black rifle" and damn near everything inbetween. I shoot....or should say shot and hope to shoot again (medical problems) everything from small bore silhouette to high power rifle (something that the 223/556 and every other military centerfire cartridge can play all lined up right next to eachother...at least at the matches I have been to)

Let me take a second to be real clear here, I enjoy shooting here a great deal, while I do not care a great deal for the AR platform (yes I do own one....Colt Sporter HBAR) I have not shot it in about 15 years....my son shot it last summer at a high power match....I am more into the historical military weapons.....before say about 1950 or so. The AR is a battle rifle just like the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, 03 Springfield, Krag, Trapdoor, 1861 Springfield....and everything of that ilk. Could you call a winchester model 70 a military rifle, a "kentucky" rifle military, or "battle" rifles....there it gets a little gray.....but to say it is not a battle rifle because of the cartridge it fires....I go back Oh Boy.

Sorry for the drift....back to lerking....hope I don't end up in band camp for all this.

Originally Posted by KSJEEPER

Just so you understand this if it comes up again...

A battle rifle is a military service rifle that fires a full power rifle cartridge, such as 7.62x51mm NATO. While the designation of battle rifle is usually given to post-World War II select fire infantry rifles such as the H&K G3, the FN FAL, or the M14,^[1] this term can also apply to older military semi-automatic rifles such as the M1 Garand.
The term 'battle rifle' and the differentiation between battle and assault rifles is not used in most languages. It historically originated in the necessary differentiation between the American M14 and M16 rifles, and was carried over to other rifles of the same calibers, usually regardless of their general design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_rifle

[Gas Hog]

Originally Posted by Squelch

I can't make it back there before Saturday - you're not going to snatch it away from me, are you? They're asking $1490 or so. And for all I know it might be gone already.

That's a good price in normal times..I would say its gone. If not get your ass down there.
Gary

[CodeMonkee]

Originally Posted by FPGT72

Pretty convenient.

So what do we call the current standard weapon(s) systems that fires the 556 that darn near everyone in the US military carries and is trained on...

Using the terminology of the US Military and many gun experts:

The M16/AR15/M4 as used by the US Military is select fire, removable mag, carbine firing an intermediate powered cartridge. In that configuration it is by definition an Assault Rifle.

Battle Rifles must fire a Full powered cartridge as noted previously and may or may not be select fire.

Interestingly, if you get the new Colt LE 901 in select fire (they do sell to the military and LE also) you can change that rifle from a Battle Rifle (it comes in 7.62x51) to an Assault Rifle in less than a minute.

Civilian versions of the AR that are not select fire are Personal Defense Rifles (NOT Assault Weapons - a legal/political term).

[FPGT72]

I think we are really splitting hairs here....and in the context of this thread I understand it to be an (AR) thread, and that can be anything from rimfire to 308 (biggest that I know....your 762).

I think that they are in our hands pure sporting rifles and calling them this or that because of the cartridge they shoot really fuzzes the line.

And I actually don't see them any different then I see a M1 carbine, not a 45 not a 3006, but that "intermediate" cartridge....so does that make the carbine really the first assault rifle....remember the M2 was select fire.
And I would say that anyone that has shot an M1 carbine would say they are worlds of fun and pretty accurate little guns.

I know I have drifted a bit, and I am sorry, but I really think to call them anything other then a rifle is bad for our hobby.....I think that is where I was trying to go in the first place.

Originally Posted by CodeMonkee

Using the terminology of the US Military and many gun experts:

The M16/AR15/M4 as used by the US Military is select fire, removable mag, carbine firing an intermediate powered cartridge. In that configuration it is by definition an Assault Rifle.

Battle Rifles must fire a Full powered cartridge as noted previously and may or may not be select fire.

Interestingly, if you get the new Colt LE 901 in select fire (they do sell to the military and LE also) you can change that rifle from a Battle Rifle (it comes in 7.62x51) to an Assault Rifle in less than a minute.

Civilian versions of the AR that are not select fire are Personal Defense Rifles (NOT Assault Weapons - a legal/political term).

[pilot]

Originally Posted by Squelch

I can't make it back there before Saturday - you're not going to snatch it away from me, are you? They're asking $1490 or so. And for all I know it might be gone already. I stopped by there this morning on my way to somewhere else, and got talking to a guy that works there. I was actually looking at the Garands, but they weren't original enough for my taste. I saw the Springfield though, and it looked . . . appealing.

If I had an extra $1490 laying around, I'd be shopping for a DR350. Knock yourself out.

(I ride a KLR, remember?)

[FPGT72]

You should see the Carbine now that I got it cleaned up.....never seen an M1 with tiger stripe wood like that one.

Originally Posted by pilot

If I had an extra $1490 laying around, I'd be shopping for a DR350. Knock yourself out.

(I ride a KLR, remember?)

[andy29847]

Using the terminology of the US Military and many gun experts:

The M16/AR15/M4 as used by the US Military is select fire, removable mag, carbine firing an intermediate powered cartridge. In that configuration it is by definition an Assault Rifle.

Battle Rifles must fire a Full powered cartridge as noted previously and may or may not be select fire.

From the same Wiki crap that you are quoting:

Definition

The term battle rifle is likely a neologism. It is not defined or frequently used in military field manuals and government documents (being unofficially used in the field in reference to a Designated Marksman's rifle). There are some government requisition documents[9] that do make mention of a specific rifle as a battle rifle, but those documents may simply be using the manufacturer's marketing name (similar to how Springfield Armory's M14 clone is trademarked as the M1A) when referring to a semi-automatic/controlled-fire hybrid weapon.

I think I found the Supply Sergeant.

[FPGT72]

Designated Marksman rifle....that opens it up to things like a PSL or M76, those not quite sniper rifles but with more range over the standard (I was going to say battle rifle) weapon that the rank and file troops carry.

If you ever get a chance to play with a PSL or the M76 one is in 54R the other in 8mm, they are a great deal of fun to play with. I have a TGI PSL and have not had a lick of problem out of it.....it does get some attn. at the range however....makes a big boom.

That could be a big part of the reason I am not on the AR, or AK band wagon.....they are like belly buttons, or 10/22 everyone has one. I like to be a little different.....but like everyone I do have one.

Originally Posted by andy29847

From the same Wiki crap that you are quoting:

Definition

The term battle rifle is likely a neologism. It is not defined or frequently used in military field manuals and government documents (being unofficially used in the field in reference to a Designated Marksman's rifle). There are some government requisition documents[9] that do make mention of a specific rifle as a battle rifle, but those documents may simply be using the manufacturer's marketing name (similar to how Springfield Armory's M14 clone is trademarked as the M1A) when referring to a semi-automatic/controlled-fire hybrid weapon.

I think I found the Supply Sergeant.