MSF Instructor was an MF'er

[tedder]

Originally Posted by Human Ills

I get a kick out of the thought that there are 'expert' riders out there who think that an MSF course is a cool place to show off.

It is fun to take a fully loaded adventure bike, complete with happy trails panniers, through the exercises.



I think I was told "don't do that, you'll scare the students".

[Human Ills]

Damn, that does sound cool.

[rocker59]

Originally Posted by Shoganai

No, the problem is people are calling it BEGINNERS riding course when in fact it is a BASIC riders course.


Perhaps this is where the OP was confused.


It is NOT designed or intended to be a BEGINNERS course tho it is intended to teach new riders with little or no experience the BASICS of operating a motorcycle.

"Basic", "Beginners", whatever. I still say it should be called "pre-licensing class", because that's effectively what it is...

From thier site:

Learning-to-Ride RiderCourses are a good starting point for most people who have already made the decision that motorcycling may enhance the quality of their life and want to get started the best possible way. This series provides the basic mental and physical skills for riding.

Basic RiderCourse (BRC)
The best place for a new rider to start once they've made the decision to ride. Successful completion of this course and its knowledge and skill tests, which consists of approximately five hours of classroom and 10 hours of on-cycle instruction (conducted over two or three sessions), may serve as a license test waiver program in some states. Motorcycles and helmets are provided for your use during the course.

http://msf-usa.org/index_new.cfm?pag...20RiderCourses

[DAKEZ]

Originally Posted by tedder

Good. There's nothing to learn from negative comments or those you disagree with.

There is very little to be learned from the like minded.

[rocker59]

Look. I know the MSF is a good thing.

I just think it's Bullshit that they take money from people with zero experience, then boot 'em in the first hour or two of the riding part.

If a customer calls to sign up and says they have zero experience, they should be turned away. If they say they want to take the BRC "to learn how to ride", they should be turned away.

I've seen/heard enough stories, and experienced one myself, to know that BRC is not for beginners, and beginners should be advised to learn how to ride, then come back for the BRC.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

If you are an MSF instructor, look in the mirror and evaluate yourself honestly. Where do you think you fit, the first or the second group?

And if you're not, ask yourself if you could be. The reason the not-so-good ones are out there is that there's a need, and nobody else is trying to fill it.

[dbuzz]

Originally Posted by rocker59

Look. I know the MSF is a good thing.

I just think it's Bullshit that they take money from people with zero experience, then boot 'em in the first hour or two of the riding part.

If a customer calls to sign up and says they have zero experience, they should be turned away. If they say they want to take the BRC "to learn how to ride", they should be turned away.

I've seen/heard enough stories, and experienced one myself, to know that BRC is not for beginners, and beginners should be advised to learn how to ride, then come back for the BRC.

That's the silliest argument I have read so far

Exactly where would you like these people with "zero experience" to go to learn to ride??? To a mate that will show them how they've been doing it for 35years and can show them how to 'lay 'er down'???

Of course they are pre-license courses!! ... why else would someone (for the most part) do a BRC unless they wanted to ride on the public road?

FWIW people do not get booted from courses here ... but they may get stopped for that day and sent to remedial class.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by tedder

It is fun to take a fully loaded adventure bike, complete with happy trails panniers, through the exercises.



I think I was told "don't do that, you'll scare the students".

I think He was talking about students doing that. Oh wait- you did that as a student. I taught that class.

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

Sure there is. It is called a critique. There is very little to be learned from the like minded.

DAKEZ- get your sarcasm meter checked; I think Tedder's comment blew the fuse so fast you never noticed.

Originally Posted by Shoganai

It is NOT designed or intended to be a BEGINNERS course tho it is intended to teach new riders with little or no experience the BASICS of operating a motorcycle.

Shogs? You're wrong, dear.

If they expected people knew how to operate a motorcycle, why spend the first hour (two hours?) teaching them to use the clutch, brakes, shifter, etc.?

A lot of places offer that class also, a one-day version that strips out all the basic control operation exercises and get into the fun stuff.

Originally Posted by OaklandStrom

One thing that I saw was a lack of flexibility in the instruction. The instructors had to read from a script. No matter how good a script is, it won't fit every situation. That's where I think the curriculum fails.

Take a program designed to be offered to anyone that basically teaches them how to become a self-guided missile, and let Joe RiderCoach tweak it the way he sees fit? Probably, a fair number of RC's could pull that off. Mind, if he's off the script and a student gets hurt, he's going to get sued, and will have nothing to stand on.

How many active RiderCoaches are there, maybe 10,000? Not all of those are capable of making those judgements. Now you have to qualify who can, and who can't. Last I heard MSF was having enough issues scaling it's training processes as-is.

Most likely, some that know they're not up to that will try anyway. Even with it being forbidden, Ive read things here like "the instructor said 'The book says to use both brakes, but I'm telling you that front brake is dangerous and you should avoid it'."

Coudl the script be better? Maybe. And maybe they should work to have an environment where students ask questions, which has always worked well for me.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by rocker59

I've seen/heard enough stories, and experienced one myself, to know that BRC is not for beginners, and beginners should be advised to learn how to ride, then come back for the BRC.

And how many successes have you not heard about?

[slartidbartfast]

Originally Posted by rocker59

...

I'm not saying the MSF BRC or BE BRC are bad things. They simply aren't places for rank beginners to go and learn how to ride motorcycles...

People saying crap like this leads a lot of beginners to avoid doing something that could ease their learning and possibly save their lives. If you know of a better alternative, please expound

[slartidbartfast]

Originally Posted by dbuzz

That's the silliest argument I have read so far

Exactly where would you like these people with "zero experience" to go to learn to ride??? To a mate that will show them how they've been doing it for 35years and can show them how to 'lay 'er down'???

Of course they are pre-license courses!! ... why else would someone (for the most part) do a BRC unless they wanted to ride on the public road?

FWIW people do not get booted from courses here ... but they may get stopped for that day and sent to remedial class.

I don't think we're going to win this guy over. He is simultaneously saying the course does not cater to beginners (too advanced) and that it does not go far enough. Certainly it is a compromise but in my experience both the initial learning (starting with where the controls are and how to use them) and the more advanced stuff such as cornering and braking techniques does a pretty damn good job of getting complete newbies to a stage where they can begin their street riding adventures with the necessary basic skills.

A poor coach could definitely detract from the effectiveness of the curriculum but it isn't THAT hard for a trained RC to deliver adequately and I sincerely doubt that many "bad" coaches have made it to that position. Certainly there is nobody I am aware of in the program I work in. As with many other ventures, a lot of those who fail at learning to ride would rather blame anything or anyone but themselves.

[PSYCHO II]

Originally Posted by rocker59

Look. I know the MSF is a good thing.

I just think it's Bullshit that they take money from people with zero experience, then boot 'em in the first hour or two of the riding part.

If a customer calls to sign up and says they have zero experience, they should be turned away. If they say they want to take the BRC "to learn how to ride", they should be turned away.

I've seen/heard enough stories, and experienced one myself, to know that BRC is not for beginners, and beginners should be advised to learn how to ride, then come back for the BRC.

What a circular argument.



Learn to ride before you learn to ride. Tell me what you're smoking man.

[Advntr]

MSF has become politically correct and warm n fuzzy.
I will never take another one of their courses.
Disorganized, lazy and oblivious to reality.
I got stupid and thought being a "riding coach" would be a good thing till I read the propaganda...

Please note their group [hug] riding technique puts everyone in danger.
They want motorcycles [motor vehicles] to be spaced less than 2 seconds apart in a staggered formation. Look it up if you think it's bs. They were promoting it in an article which will be found in the the spring 2012 HD pirate rag [hog] by Becky Tillman, Regional Lead Instructor, Rider's Edge®

Edge of disaster is more like it...

[Jim Moore]

Originally Posted by rocker59

Look. I know the MSF is a good thing.

I just think it's Bullshit that they take money from people with zero experience, then boot 'em in the first hour or two of the riding part.

If a customer calls to sign up and says they have zero experience, they should be turned away. If they say they want to take the BRC "to learn how to ride", they should be turned away.

I've seen/heard enough stories, and experienced one myself, to know that BRC is not for beginners, and beginners should be advised to learn how to ride, then come back for the BRC.

It might be something with your local school. I wouldn't remove someone at the beginning of a course (or ever, really) unless he was a danger to himself or to the other students.

[glasswave]

I have read this thread with some interest, especially the debate as to whether or not msf brc is adequate for "never evers."

Some good points have been made on both sides, but as far as I can see, the debate points to a hole in the MSF curriculum. Firstly, it seems apparent that many if not most brc students have some (often more than some) moto experience. There are also those who have never even sat on a motorcycle. Some of these master the initial intro skills quickly and can proceed, while others struggle and present a danger if allowed to continue at the cirricular pace.

OTH, where are these folks that need more nurturing to go? It seems that the msf could use a pre brc course. This could be recommended to the never evers and could be a place to send those that need additional attention on the most basic skills. If someone is "counseled out" they could go to the pre brc course and improve their skills at a slower pace. They could also be offered a new brc course for free after paying for and completeing the pre course. Also, those that are never evers could be recommended to the pre course.