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Old 09-26-2012, 12:52 PM   #196
tedder
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Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
Please provide a summary of your experience with MSF and your understanding of the history of development and delivery of MSF training in relation to the above statement. ...or was this just a troll?
See MCN's exegesis on MSF from a few years ago. Plenty of ink spilled on the topic.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:07 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by tedder View Post
See MCN's exegesis on MSF from a few years ago. Plenty of ink spilled on the topic.
Seemed to have more to do with some die-hards sulking about the change from instruction to coaching with the last major curriculum update. That has long since blown over. Author of those articles also has (had) an axe to grind. That's not to say there weren't some nuggets in there but it was not up to MCN's usual standard of independence IMO.

To me, it seemed the changes were primarily to the way in which training was delivered, to update approaches in accordance with current thinking on adult education techniques. Changes to the curriculum itself were evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, and I saw no evidence of a shift of intent or focus.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:35 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
Seemed to have more to do with some die-hards sulking about the change from instruction to coaching with the last major curriculum update. That has long since blown over.
You missed the close connection between MSF and MIC?
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:28 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
IMHO, done RIGHT, there's no reason a BRC can't be the first exposure to motorcycles.
Virtually all the instructors on this thread say they have counseled out many students and that it's a common occurrence. Are you insinuating that these instructors are lacking or is it your contention that if people cannot master the initial skills in the allotted time frame that they should give up on the sport of motorcycling.


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Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
Off the top of my head, as applied in Oregon, rounded to the nearest five feet:
20mph- 23 feet (Oregon)
30mph- 45 feet
40mph- 90 feet

I'll have to go hunt my cards down for 45, 60, and 70mph; will edit later if anyone cares.
If you have them handy, I'd enjoy seeing the figures
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:48 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
... and therefore one with little incentive for most people to take.

Most true first-time riders do just as well as everyone else in a BRC course. Of the ones who struggle, I would suggest that in most cases, their newbie status is irrelevant - they are ill prepared or unsuited in ways that are not directly related to their prior lack of experience -

SOME of those who have difficulty with the basics go on to do well in the rest of the course once they have crossed that early hurdle. Others continue to "underperform" throughout the course.

If we DID provide an optional pre-BRC beginner course, I sincerely doubt that most of the small minority who really need it would think so beforehand and would not sign up for it anyway. In my experience, almost all of those who fail the course but return for another attempt, do much better the second time. Unfortunately the curriculum does not allow us to simply spend twice as much time with them at the first go-around (although we will substantially extend the early exercises if required - but it is sometimes still not enough).

In my opinion newbies would usually be best prepared by spending lots of time riding a bicycle before they come to the BRC class. Few of those who need to, do. Cycling should be more accessible and safer than doing laps in a cow pasture on a small dirt bike.
So, in your opinion, within a couple of exercises, a decent instructor should feel confident telling people that they are not suited to the sport and should give up? But a sentence or two later you admit that some, if given a chance, can indeed master the coursework.

I suppose it depends the on the mission of the organization. Is it to nurture as many students as possible into responsible safe motorcyclists, or is it to eliminate those w/o natural aptitude toward the sport. Are you a Harvard or a CC? I realize that the answer may lie somewhere in between, but still, perhaps some introspection is in order.

I think, if marketed correctly, a pre BRC might be very attractive for the more timid of the never evers. Where I teach, our remedial courses are often very attractive and in some cases have changed lives. I for one, am glad we have them. Finally, how will bicycling help someone that is hatching clutch control problems? This seems very common for beginners. Do you really tell people you council out that they may want to spend a few months learning to bicycle & then come take another shot at it.

It seems as though if you could say "take the brc prep course, they go more slowly and offer more individual attention, then will go through these skills when you have sufficient background like some of the other students here." that it would be easier to counsel out and the student would feel like they have recourse.
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Old 09-26-2012, 05:48 PM   #201
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For clarity:

I have counseled out , maybe, 5 people in basically 10 years. It's actually rare to get counseled out.

Passing the Skills Eval? Let me put it this way: I can tell you by the end of the first day those who ain't gonna pass. They don't meet the threshold for counseling out but you know that they aren't gonna get where they need to be.
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Old 09-26-2012, 05:57 PM   #202
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It's been a while since I took the BRC and I had been on two wheels before taking it. Given that it's meant to be BASIC, I think it serves it's purpose and I suggest it all of the time to people starting out. But I'll also echo what someone else said that many people, in my opinion, primarily take it as a way of bypassing the DMV. As long as you can putt around in first gear, brake, and make it around some cones, you're good to go. That's generally easier than what I've seen most DMV tests require. I had a husband/wife team and they were decent and I thought they were tolerant with everyone. I didn't see them get out of line with anyone there and everyone had a good time. But I have also heard stories similar to the OP. There was also an ERC class going next to us and I did see their instructor laying into more than one person (most of whom packed up and left).

As for individual instructors, my understanding is that they are generally selected from people who have experience (I'll admit that I don't know what the exact process of selection is - maybe one of the ones on here can say what they had to do to be deemed "instructor") riding and that's it. Just because you have experience riding a motorcycle doesn't necessarily mean you are going to be a good teacher. This goes for anything and not just bikes, so don't get me wrong. I know a lot about computers, but that doesn't mean I should be up at a college or somewhere else teaching people how to work one. I think that will also contribute to short tolerance levels and that should be corrected. A teacher needs to be patient with the students, not just boot them in the ass after a few minutes/hours if they aren't up to their standard in my opinion. There is more to being an actual teacher than just having some experience doing something. It's a good thing to have, but there are other skills that are needed as well besides just experience. If you've been riding for 20 years but are a major asshole, you probably shouldn't be trying to work with people.

To me this should be handled like anything else - file a formal complaint with the MSF about the instructor and what happened. If it happened to you, I'm sure it's happened to others. If they can't be patient with people new to motorcycling, then they shouldn't be teaching.

I also don't think there should be any experience required before taking the class - it's a freaking BASIC class and that's generally meant to be a "teach you to ride" thing. I've never heard of the BRC being anything other than a learn to ride type of program. It's not a "sorry, you've never been on a bike so you're not welcome to take a basic class" Like someone else said, they do offer an experienced rider course for that.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:01 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Crash View Post
For clarity:

I have counseled out , maybe, 5 people in basically 10 years. It's actually rare to get counseled out.

Passing the Skills Eval? Let me put it this way: I can tell you by the end of the first day those who ain't gonna pass. They don't meet the threshold for counseling out but you know that they aren't gonna get where they need to be.
And I don't think anybody should have a problem with that. There shouldn't be a guaranty to pass. But even those people still get a couple days of valuable instruction and hopefully go home with the realization that they have more work to do or maybe that motorcycling isn't for them. That's totally different than sending people home after a couple hours. It may not give some people the chance to realize they're short of where they need to be before operating a motorcycle. And others may get frustrated and then just dismiss the whole course and decide they can teach themselves how to ride.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:09 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Butters View Post
And I don't think anybody should have a problem with that. There shouldn't be a guaranty to pass. But even those people still get a couple days of valuable instruction and hopefully go home with the realization that they have more work to do or maybe that motorcycling isn't for them. That's totally different than sending people home after a couple hours. It may not give some people the chance to realize they're short of where they need to be before operating a motorcycle. And others may get frustrated and then just dismiss the whole course and decide they can teach themselves how to ride.



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Old 09-26-2012, 06:15 PM   #205
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What do you do with the folks that literally aren't coordinated enough to deal with the clutch, gas, shifting thing? I've seen it several times. Hell, I'm married to one. She does ok with a car without distractions, but damn straight she's not motorcycle friendly.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:55 PM   #206
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Sometimes it's hard to help people understand that, yes, they failed to pass the class--but that doesn't make them or the class a failure. Every student should come away with at least strategies they can apply while in their car. Also, if you go from never having sat on a bike to being able to shift, turn, and brake (just not to standard) then you got something done regardless.
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Old 09-26-2012, 07:25 PM   #207
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Learning to ride a motorcycle around a lot just isn't that hard. You MSF preachers are full of baloney. You overstate the complexity and over rate the skill required. Plus many of you don't even know basic english to communicate.

I can teach any moron to ride. You can't and there is a reason. It's hard for one moron to teach another.

Like another posted, MSF is an expedient way to get a license and some financial benefits from Insurance companies. Other then that, there is little or no value that one couldn't achieve on their own. Most of us have.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:04 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by glasswave View Post
So, in your opinion, within a couple of exercises, a decent instructor should feel confident telling people that they are not suited to the sport and should give up? But a sentence or two later you admit that some, if given a chance, can indeed master the coursework.
Firstly, it's really not that common, but when it has happened, it has been for the safety of the individual and other students. I can only recall telling one student he was not suited to the sport (or words to that effect) but that was under a wholly different set of circumstances. As I indicated several posts back, tired, stressed, overheated students who might have dropped the bike or done something else to scare themselves are in no fit state to continue and we can't really stop the entire class for extended periods to give them time to try and recover.

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I suppose it depends the on the mission of the organization. Is it to nurture as many students as possible into responsible safe motorcyclists, or is it to eliminate those w/o natural aptitude toward the sport. Are you a Harvard or a CC? I realize that the answer may lie somewhere in between, but still, perhaps some introspection is in order.
I don't think MSF or most coaches set out to eliminate anyone. Certainly in the program I work for, we do our best to get people through the course and even if we are certain that they are not going to pass, we will persevere as long as they are meeting minimum requirements and there are no major safety concerns. I would far rather see someone come away with a sense of accomplishment and as much improvement as I can manage to facilitate, than simply boot them out to make my job easier. I know of a couple of people who came back twice before they managed to complete and pass the course.

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I think, if marketed correctly, a pre BRC might be very attractive for the more timid of the never evers. Where I teach, our remedial courses are often very attractive and in some cases have changed lives. I for one, am glad we have them.
As I stated in an earlier post, I don't believe there would be enough demand to support remedial classes in the Louisana State program. Anyway, students that don't make it (or are counseled out) are simply able to take the entire course again. I realize that this could be an expensive proposition in some States (or under the H-D Riders Edge program) but the Louisiana State course is only $100.

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Finally, how will bicycling help someone that is hatching clutch control problems? This seems very common for beginners. Do you really tell people you council out that they may want to spend a few months learning to bicycle & then come take another shot at it.
It is unusual to find a struggling beginner with only one problem to overcome. As with most things there is usually a broad combination of factors. Issues with clutch control, gear changes, balance and apparent fear of speed or leaning are fairly typical. Also unfit people who are not used to spending a lot of time in the sun or who are wearing inappropriate gear such as heavy jackets or dark colored sweatshirts often experience overheating or other physical problems that compound and exacerbate everything else. The more potential issues you can take out of the equation the better.

I have not suggested going away and riding a bicycle to everyone but definitely to some. (I have also suggested to people that they sign up for another course when the weather will be cooler.) I'm convinced proficiency on a bicycle helps build some of the necessary coordination and balance. It's certainly easier for most people than trying to find a small dirt bike and a cow pasture - and carries less risk of them building bad habits.

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It seems as though if you could say "take the brc prep course, they go more slowly and offer more individual attention, then will go through these skills when you have sufficient background like some of the other students here." that it would be easier to counsel out and the student would feel like they have recourse.
Perhaps if we had a BRC prep course but we don't. Counseling people out is a fairly rare occurrence - I just don't believe other RCs who say they have never done it - I think they just call it something else. BTW, when I use the term, it means gently convincing someone that continuing TODAY is not in their best interests, as opposed to simply telling them they are done - I reserve that statement for those who are deliberately disrupting the class, acting dangerously, or who appear under the influence of drink or drugs (the latter, hopefully before they even get near a bike).
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:11 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
Learning to ride a motorcycle around a lot just isn't that hard. [MSF intructors] overstate the complexity and over rate the skill required.
This statement may have posessed an inkling of merit, had the rest of your inane blather not amounted to such churlish drivel.



Quote:
Plus many of you don't even know basic english to communicate.



Next time, you may want to proofread this kind of assertion before posting. It causes you to look like an imbecilic moron.



Quote:
I can teach any moron to ride. You can't and there is a reason. It's hard for one moron to teach another.



Stupid is as stupid says.

Quote:
Like another posted, MSF is an expedient way to get a license and some financial benefits from Insurance companies. Other then that, there is little or no value that one couldn't achieve on their own. Most of us have.
Well tell me then, why do studies show that one is much much less likely to have a serious accident if they have had a formal moto safety course?

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Old 09-26-2012, 09:28 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
[a reasonable response]...


Perhaps if we had a BRC prep course but we don't. Counseling people out is a fairly rare occurrence - I just don't believe other RCs who say they have never done it - I think they just call it something else. BTW, when I use the term, it means gently convincing someone that continuing TODAY is not in their best interests, as opposed to simply telling them they are done - I reserve that statement for those who are deliberately disrupting the class, acting dangerously, or who appear under the influence of drink or drugs (the latter, hopefully before they even get near a bike).
Fair enough then.

OTH, it seems as though it may be worth while for the msf to at least try to pilot a "brc prep course." It may only be able to fill once or twice a season, but it might be an option "Hey, come back in fall when it's cooler, we have a class designed to focus more on the basics, it goes much, much slower and is closed to those who already have any significant experience." Seems worth a shot, it sounds like VA has had some success with it. Ya never know, it could turn out to be a popular class.

Conversely, these things can become a tremendous amount of work, especially if they don't pan out.

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