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Old 09-26-2012, 09:35 PM   #211
slartidbartfast
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Originally Posted by glasswave View Post


This statement may have posessed an inkling of merit, if the rest of your inane blather wasn't such churlish drivel.

...
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:48 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by sleazy rider View Post
What do you do with the folks that literally aren't coordinated enough to deal with the clutch, gas, shifting thing? I've seen it several times. Hell, I'm married to one. She does ok with a car without distractions, but damn straight she's not motorcycle friendly.
You swap them over to a scooter and see how they go ... they are often quite relieved to be done with all that shifting and clutching carryon ... it also means that instead of being booted from the class and feeling like a dismal failure they can end the course with a feeling of accomplishment
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:35 AM   #213
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pre-school

It looks like Arkansas has a introductory class, for those who aren't sure if they can handle the BRC.
http://www.arsaferider.com/courses.html
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:42 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Capt Crash View Post
Sometimes it's hard to help people understand that, yes, they failed to pass the class--but that doesn't make them or the class a failure. Every student should come away with at least strategies they can apply while in their car. Also, if you go from never having sat on a bike to being able to shift, turn, and brake (just not to standard) then you got something done regardless.
Yeah they got something done... crashing!!! But in all seriousness here in Oz we are encouraged to find something positive to say... Well I can remember this person that did everyting imaginable that was wrong when moving off and had a spectacular crash resultining in no injury to their person but completly trashing the the bike. With the bike onthe ground and letting out a screem that would wake the banshees from hell they calmly reached out and hit the "kill switch".

What could I say... "Well done.... you turne the motor off and made sure there were no more problems" ... when in fact my mind was thinking something completely different like ... "in two hours I'll be having a cleansing ale ready for more of this chaos tomorrow"... Can they handle the truth?
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:49 AM   #215
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The AR thing sounds like a winner. No one really misses two hours, and it can also give the instructors a chance to pre-class people into "needs help" and "needs a lot of help".
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Old 09-27-2012, 03:19 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
Learning to ride a motorcycle around a lot just isn't that hard. You MSF preachers are full of baloney. You overstate the complexity and over rate the skill required. Plus many of you don't even know basic english to communicate.

I can teach any moron to ride. You can't and there is a reason. It's hard for one moron to teach another.

Like another posted, MSF is an expedient way to get a license and some financial benefits from Insurance companies. Other then that, there is little or no value that one couldn't achieve on their own. Most of us have.
I know you're just trolling, but you have no idea of some of the crap we see. I had a lady last year who had never ridden a bicycle. Never. How the hell do you grow up in America never riding a bike? And what makes you jump to tthe conclusion that a motorcycle is a good idea?

We also get bunches of "I'm 70 years old, 100 lbs overweight, and can barely stand up. I've never done anything athletic since I was cut from the junior high JV softball team in 1967. I can't see and I can't hear. I think motorcycling is a fabulous idea for me!" No, it's not. It's a terrible idea for you.
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Old 09-27-2012, 03:42 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by dbuzz View Post
You swap them over to a scooter and see how they go ... they are often quite relieved to be done with all that shifting and clutching carryon ... it also means that instead of being booted from the class and feeling like a dismal failure they can end the course with a feeling of accomplishment
It's a motorcycle training course, not a scooter course. 99.9% of motorcycles have clutches and shifters. The training sites don't have the funds to procure scooters along with the necessary maintenance for the student abuse the small bikes take from teaching newbs to ride. There's no policy of "No student left behind" in the MSF curriculum. Some folks are just not suited for complicated machinery operation. The truth sometimes hurts, but not as much as hitting a Mack truck on a city street.
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Old 09-27-2012, 04:27 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by sleazy rider View Post
It's a motorcycle training course, not a scooter course. 99.9% of motorcycles have clutches and shifters. The training sites don't have the funds to procure scooters along with the necessary maintenance for the student abuse the small bikes take from teaching newbs to ride. There's no policy of "No student left behind" in the MSF curriculum. Some folks are just not suited for complicated machinery operation. The truth sometimes hurts, but not as much as hitting a Mack truck on a city street.

These days there are a ton of choices to ride bikes from 50cc to 600cc that are classified as scooters. Plus there are full on motorcycles that are automatics. There is no reason to believe that people cannot enjoy riding without the need/requirement to shift.

Sure, one would think that if someone couldn't master shifting and clutching that they wouldn't be able to master riding either. But that is not always the case. In fact, a scooter is an excellent way to start, then move up to shifting once they have mastered the rest.

Jim

PS Not everyone is a teacher/trainer, just like not everyone is equipped to understand and display logic!
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Old 09-27-2012, 04:51 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by glasswave View Post
Th







And this is exactly why I only need two fingers for braking......
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:13 AM   #220
sleazy rider
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Jim, that's why it was 99.9% and not 100%. Those scooters make up a small segment of the actual pool of bikes. How's the financial status of the training group in your state? Ours gets by with 8-10 year old, well abused bikes and an occasional new one tossed in by a caring dealer. Course fees are just $25 per the State, supplemented by a fee on our license renewals. Adding new scooters is not an option here. Be honest, not everyone that shows up for the training is capable of following instructions given. They're given ample time to pick up rudimentary skills one at a time, then are challenged to put it all together to make the bike move. Some can't grasp the coordination required to make the transition. That said, during the three separate sessions I attended with my kids, I only saw three folks removed for damn good cause. They earned it by totally screwing up. The other 54 made it thru all three days. IIRC, only three or four failed the final exam and weren't given the passing certificate to get their license. They were encouraged to continue practicing on their own with their learners permit and to try again when they were more comfortable.


Added: I learned the old school way. Dirt bikes at age 10. Been riding for 45 years now and try to get at least me training course every 3-4 years to remove bad habits. It was all my neighbor's fault. He helped us get our dirtbikes to the good stuff with his El Camino and saw I handled the bike ok. At the ripe old age of 12' he tossed me the keys to his BSA Lightning and said be careful. I was totally hooked at that point. Two years after, he got a brandy new KZ-1 900cc fire breather and let me take it out too. I loved his attitude and mentoring.
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sleazy rider screwed with this post 09-27-2012 at 05:29 AM
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:14 AM   #221
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Which one of you taught him how to ride???

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Old 09-27-2012, 05:43 AM   #222
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True story (and if you coach you'll see just about everything):

Two young 20 something girls were taking the course. They were friends and thinking of getting bikes and doing some kind of "Thelma & Louise" thing.

As the first day progressed they were doing OK, just getting it done but--being mediocre to average. During an exercise one of them pulls out of the circuit to talk to the other instructor. They chatted a moment and she then went to leave. She revved it, dropped the clutch like a hammer, did a very, very impressive 12 o'clock, no-footer, tail scrapper wheelie, chopped the throttle, put the front on the ground, the rev'd it and dropped the clutch again, launched the bike out from under her, looped it, did damage to every part of the bike from broken tail light to bent levers and dented tank and a somehow even scrapped the front fender.

It was epic. No injuries. Right after that she and her friend "counseled themselves out."

Generally--it's not a rule--but generally people actually counsel themselves out. They're relieved you pull them.

(OH, the vicious beast of a bike that reared and bucked? A Nighthawk 250)
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:48 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Capt Crash View Post
True story (and if you coach you'll see just about everything):



(OH, the vicious beast of a bike that reared and bucked? A Nighthawk 250)
seen it but it was a Suzuki TU 250.
brilliant.
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:11 AM   #224
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Mixed ability within the group is a problem in any learning environment, but particularly so in motorcycling. The problem is that someone who is only fractionally slower/worse, will quickly feel out of their depth pushing to keep up with the more skilled/experienced riders. This means more mistakes, which of course, they're less well equipped to deal with. At best it means they feel really pressured and out of their depth. At worst, it means crashing (perhaps repeatedly) and all that that entails.

I have spent hundreds of hours in motorcycle tuition, with dozens of different students and I have never come across a group of remotely equal ability, even in classes already divided between beginner, intermediate and advanced. My personal feel is that beginner classes should cater to the weakest pupil. The intermediate classes should cater to the middle of the group and advanced should cater to the best in the group.

As a student you also need to be understanding and realistic about your abilities. There's no shame in saying "I'm not comfortable doing that". Most people who are better riders than you have also ridden in groups where they weren't the best (even the Dakar and Enduro champs were novices once) and tend to be fairly understanding if you're the weak link. People usually only get pissed off when you insist on staying in the higher groups, holding them back, when you should be in (even at the top of) the lower group.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:02 AM   #225
JimVonBaden
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Originally Posted by sleazy rider View Post
Jim, that's why it was 99.9% and not 100%. Those scooters make up a small segment of the actual pool of bikes.
Scooters make up a much larger segment of the riding population worldwide. Can't say for most places, but there are a shit ton of scooters in the DC area.

Quote:
How's the financial status of the training group in your state? Ours gets by with 8-10 year old, well abused bikes and an occasional new one tossed in by a caring dealer. Course fees are just $25 per the State, supplemented by a fee on our license renewals.
The course fees in VA run from $160 for the nearly impossible to get into state run classes, to over $300 for the private run classes, with the Rider's edge in the middle.
Quote:
Adding new scooters is not an option here.
Scooters cost generally half, or less, than the little bikes the MSF instructors use. Adding a couple of them to the potential pot of bikes makes perfect financial sense.

Quote:
Be honest, not everyone that shows up for the training is capable of following instructions given.
That I do not believe. They may not be good at it, but if they have an IQ above 70 they can learn. IMHO, not every MSF instructor is capable of actually teaching, especially those that need special attention.

Jim
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