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Old 09-23-2012, 01:38 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by dolomoto View Post
Rider Coaches aren't so much in the business of "teaching" as they are facilitating learning. It's preposterous to think that all MSF-certified RC's are expert riders.
It is not "preposterous" at all, as a matter of FACT, not all MSF-certified RC's are experts. I appreciate that these guys take the time to become instructors, and I applaud their attempts, but it simply is a FACT that not every body is doing the job they should be doing, or doing it right. I'm not condemning this particular instructor, he could just be having a bad day. On the other hand, Mrs6gun may have had her expectations too high. None of us know, none of us were there, and we've only heard one side of the story.

Get the refund, take the class again from another instructor, and get on with you life. One instructor does not indicate all MSF instructors any more than one rider proves what all riders are like..
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Old 09-23-2012, 01:46 PM   #62
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The problem is that today there are far fewer drivers who have owned or driven a standard shift car. Trying to teach throttle/clutch/shift coordination to someone who has never done it should be done on a four wheeled vehicle first. Once the person understands the relationship of clutch and throttle, he can move on to two wheels. The advantage is that on four wheels, when you muff it, you won't fall down. It doesn't matter whether you clutch with your foot or hand, because what's being learned will transfer over.

Of all of the people I've helped learn, those with standard shift experience have done better than those without.
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Old 09-23-2012, 01:58 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
The problem is that today there are far fewer drivers who have owned or driven a standard shift car. Trying to teach throttle/clutch/shift coordination to someone who has never done it should be done on a four wheeled vehicle first...
I don't see that it matters. If the student is even half competent, they will pick it up quickly and with no more risk to themselves than doing the same thing in a car
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:00 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Uglyprimate View Post
Wait a minute...

It's a fucking THREE day course and you're already bitching on the first day and demanded a refund?

jesus H. Krist on a biscuit, what color is your Subaru?
It's a 16 hour course and can be broken up depending on class needs. In Fl during the summer we like to do the first 4 hours of class room at night during the week so we can be on and off the range before it gets to hot.
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:02 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
Good for you!

You are the first RC I have ever come across that hasn't had to let someone go from their class (although you are not claiming a 100% success rate so maybe you have another term for it.) I can't say it happens very often but it does happen - and I don't usually feel great about it. Even if someone commits an act that should result in instant dismissal, I still try to let them down gently and the best way to do that with most people is help them to realize that today is not their day and have them remove themselves from the course. That's what I mean by "counsel out". It is preferable to having them continue and possibly injure themselves or others.
I have never counseled any one out ant i have a 100% success rate, and I agree if could be a weakness on the coaches part if they counsel out a lot of people.
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:08 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by dolomoto View Post
I reckon we'll just have to disagree. I can name 3-4 other RC who've also never counseled a rider out.

If you're gonna call me a Liar, just go ahead and do so.

I cut my teeth on the RSS and then transitioned to the BRC/ERC and watched many fine Instructors quit rather than "facilitate" the riders in BRC. As for me, helping riders learn life saving skills became a passion.

I've started classes early and went as late as 8pm if the rider was willing to stay.

I really hate to hear about the RC's that think just because they are a RC, then they know best.

IMO, counseling a rider out is a failure on the RC. We're not teaching people to build the space shuttle, we're helping riders learn Basic motorcycle skills. Maybe more RC's should run the exercises longer...or even run them twice instead of "counseling" riders out.
So what do you call it when someone quits or crashes for a second time or is obviously a menace to themselves and everyone around them and needs to be made aware of that fact?

In the first few, critical, exercises, you can often give the rest of the class a break while you do some one-on-one coaching. However, you can't let the student move on to the next exercise until they have "got it" and you can't keep the entire class for hours and hours. It's also counter-productive to keep coaching someone if they are overtired and overheated which is often the case.

You have got a lot more stamina than me and 90% of my students if you think you could run till 8pm on a Louisiana summer day.
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:22 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by warrior1677 View Post
I have never counseled any one out ant i have a 100% success rate, and I agree if could be a weakness on the coaches part if they counsel out a lot of people.
That's absolutely fucking amazing!!! Do you never fail anybody, no matter how bad they are or have you never had a late 50's, overweight, uncoordinated, heat-stressed student drop their bike a couple of times? Have you NEVER had someone who doesn't want to be there give up and quit - or simply not come back after lunch? EVERY single coach I have ever come across has had this happen multiple times. I want to know your secret.
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Old 09-23-2012, 03:33 PM   #68
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Wait. For clarity: a 100% success rate means what? 100% pass the written and skill evaluation? 'Cause simple educational theory will call bullshit on that. IF you mean completion of class--they start and they are all there at the end? Then I'm shocked I've had people go home and shower, come back, and not understand why they can't complete. Likewise folks show up late on a range day there is no option you cannot let them ride...they go home.

SO. What does 100% success mean?
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Old 09-23-2012, 03:50 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
That's absolutely fucking amazing!!! Do you never fail anybody, no matter how bad they are or have you never had a late 50's, overweight, uncoordinated, heat-stressed student drop their bike a couple of times? Have you NEVER had someone who doesn't want to be there give up and quit - or simply not come back after lunch? EVERY single coach I have ever come across has had this happen multiple times. I want to know your secret.
Perhaps if we knew how many classes they have conducted. The first class I conducted (here in Oz) I had a 100% success rate. Didn't last long. Perhaps he is not counting the ones that just walk away. Perhaps he uses garlic to achieve this result. More likely if it is across a large number then the BS factor comes to mind.
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Old 09-23-2012, 04:07 PM   #70
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I'm pretty sure that my instructor was an asshole.

(Self-taught.)
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Old 09-23-2012, 04:46 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
I don't see that it matters. If the student is even half competent, they will pick it up quickly and with no more risk to themselves than doing the same thing in a car
You obviously haven't had to teach someone who has no mechanical aptitude and has no idea what a clutch is to drive a standard shift car, much less a bike. It's a lot easier to learn the principle of clutch/throttle sync sitting in something that isn't going to fall over. Most guys who are motorheads don't have this problem and have trouble visualizing it. It has nothing to do with competency, because the student in this case is not competent to operate anything with a clutch and knows nothing about it. We're talking about someone who hasn't a clue, and is trying to learn the basics in three days. If you put someone like this on a bike, they'll either dump it or hit something, and likely give up. I'd rather that they didn't have that unpleasant experience.
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Old 09-23-2012, 04:51 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by duck View Post
I'm pretty sure that my instructor was an asshole.

(Self-taught.)
Unlike safety skills on a motorcycle, that personality comes natural for some of us. No self-teaching required.
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:25 PM   #73
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Dang. Another bloodless castration. Shogs must be a doctor or a nurse...

Well-put.
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:47 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by RMZMZM View Post
It is unfortunate you feel the instructor was not professional with the manner he spoke to you.

As an instructor myself, what you have described is exactly what the MSF Beginning Rider's Course is supposed to be. MSF provides a script and a schedule. If the instructor spent 45 minutes or more before telling you that you were not progressing, then he was most likely properly following MSF guidelines.

You indicated that you paid for this class. If this is a private for-profit school you could try calling them and expressing your expectations and see if they can place you with a different instructor or class. Otherwise you may consider finding someone who can provide one on one instruction.

Good Luck!

You sound exactly like about half the MSF instructors I know. All of that half scare the hell out of me to ride with!

Jim
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Old 09-23-2012, 06:00 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by duck View Post
I'm pretty sure that my instructor was an asshole.

(Self-taught.)
No doubt about it!

Jim
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