MSF Instructor was an MF'er

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by slartidbartfast

You are not a beginner on a training bike, trying to learn how to modulate brake pressure and avoid unintentional application of throttle while braking. IMO, it's not a huge deal for an experienced rider but there are good reasons for suggesting the use of all four fingers to a novice during a class.

i wasn't saying otherwise. just pointing out that some bikes actually can be stopped just as well with 1 finger as with 2 or 4.

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by SgtDuster

The guy asked "ONE FINGER??!!" so please, you all, stop answering "what's the problem?!, I use 2 fingers all the time".

1 isn't 2 in my neck of the wood. While I have no problem with a "2 fingers on the brake" (I almost always do myself), I have a little problem with "only 1 finger on the brake". And let me bet 2$ that it's the same thing for tedder.

One finger will give me 90% stopping power on my bike. That is enough that I do not feel the need to ride with two on the lever at all times.

Oh, and I have a use for the other finger too!

Jim

[Dan-M]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

One finger will give me 90% stopping power on my bike. That is enough that I do not feel the need to ride with two on the lever at all times.

Oh, and I have a use for the other finger too!

Jim

+1
I almost always cover with two but getting the back tire off the ground on my Aprilia is possible with one.

[slartidbartfast]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

i wasn't saying otherwise. just pointing out that some bikes actually can be stopped just as well with 1 finger as with 2 or 4.

Understood and agreed! I don't own any modern or sporty enough bikes where I can comfortably get full power and control with only one finger but I don't always use all four either. On my DR there is only room for 3 fingers max on the lever and my GS does very well with less than a full hand (should I so choose), especially when you consider it is seventeen years old - I do take good care of the brakes, however.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by slartidbartfast

You are undoubtedly correct that the RC was at fault for repeatedly screaming at you. Personally, if one polite conversation didn't do the trick, I would simply have told you to leave!

See, I wasn't going to say that because I didn't want to sound like "my way or the highway", but yeah.

Also- I don't care how many years or miles someone claims to have ridden when they show up- Experience has taught me that those are meaningless as far as actual skill development, so in all fairness- every student is new rider.

Originally Posted by slartidbartfast

You are not a beginner on a training bike, trying to learn how to modulate brake pressure and avoid unintentional application of throttle while braking. IMO, it's not a huge deal for an experienced rider but there are good reasons for suggesting the use of all four fingers to a novice during a class.

For example- on a Rebel 250, to actually get it to stop, you're going to want more than two fingers. (Have I ridden one? Sixteen hours in one weekend, riding errors for Instructor Prep count?)

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

One finger will give me 90% stopping power on my bike. That is enough that I do not feel the need to ride with two on the lever at all times.

Oh, and I have a use for the other finger too!

Please post video of emergency braking with one finger while flipping someone off with the same hand.

[rocker59]

"Beginners Riding Course" is a misnomer. Should be "Pre-licensing Course".

It's not for actual beginners. And, if a beginner actually draws a class where they are the only true beginner, they will be berated and booted, post haste.

It's just the way it is.

My GF found out the hard way. (who was I to try and stop her?) She had never ridden a motorcycle (10,000 miles as a passenger, though), and showed up to a Biker's Edge BRC as the only beginner in the class. Most of the other "beginners" already owned, and were riding motorcycles.

The curve was set, and my GF was quickly booted after being throughly shitted on by the POS instructor at the local HD shop. No, even after repeated phone calls, she was not given a refund. It was an expensive few hours.

The BRC may have been for beginners at some point in the past, but now it's just a State-sanctioned money-making scheme, not a place for beginners to go and learn how to ride motorcycles. Just a place for riders to get that piece of paper for licensing endorsements and insurance discounts.

As mentioned, a dirt bike and a cow pasture is a good idea before enduring a BRC.

[tedder]

Originally Posted by rocker59

It's not for actual beginners. And, if a beginner actually draws a class where they are the only true beginner, they will be berated and booted, post haste.

Do you have any proof besides anecdotes?

My experience is that out of 12 riders, perhaps 8 will have never sat on a bike before. A few need to get legal but are fairly new. That's from teaching a few dozen classes.

Generally, the "problem" students aren't the new students or those who are receptive to coaching. It's the ones who "know better". Occasionally there would be someone lacking the coordination required to ride.

[rocker59]

Originally Posted by tedder

Do you have any proof besides anecdotes?

My experience....

Do you?

[tedder]

Originally Posted by rocker59

Do you?

More than just a single experience.

And I completely agree with you on this:

The BRC may have been for beginners at some point in the past, but now it's just a State-sanctioned money-making scheme, not a place for beginners to go and learn how to ride motorcycles. Just a place for riders to get that piece of paper for licensing endorsements and insurance discounts.

Seems MSF should be concerned about safety, not selling bikes.

[rocker59]

Originally Posted by tedder

More than just a single experience.

The one I used was one example. A close to home example.

I could go on, and on, but I won't.

I'm not saying the MSF BRC or BE BRC are bad things. They simply aren't places for rank beginners to go and learn how to ride motorcycles...

[tedder]

Originally Posted by rocker59

I'm not saying the MSF BRC or BE BRC are bad things. They simply aren't places for rank beginners to go and learn how to ride motorcycles...

So what is? Can all rank beginners handle the "field and 110cc" method?

My concern isn't the "I can ride in a straight line without falling", it's "this is my first mile on pavement and there's a diesel F250 turing in front of me and I've never tried strong braking".

[ttpete]

Originally Posted by tedder

So what is? Can all rank beginners handle the "field and 110cc" method?

My concern isn't the "I can ride in a straight line without falling", it's "this is my first mile on pavement and there's a diesel F250 turing in front of me and I've never tried strong braking".

Think of it as pre-school before starting Kindergarten. It's low-pressure learning from someone who has the time to get the student to the point that they can start, stop, and turn without losing control. MSF obviously doesn't have the time to do it.

MSF tells the grads that they are only qualified to ride around a parking lot when they leave. WTF does that have to do with a "diesel F250"?

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by rocker59

Do you?

Yes, he does- two or three years worth, before he moved to L.A. Were he to move back to Oregon tomorrow, I'd be pushing him to get back out there again, because he was pretty good at it.

Anyway, the topic at hand. Since the required age in Oregon has gone up, I find that less true. Probably even thirds beginners, used to ride, and some current experience (typ. dirt bike or been riding sans endorsement.)

OTOH, The number of people that have never sat on a motorcycle at any time is vanishingly small- but that's still where we start.

I will note one commonality amongst the "BRC is not for beginners" rants: the classes in question are all taught in conjunction with HD dealerships.

[Human Ills]

Originally Posted by ttpete

Think of it as pre-school before starting Kindergarten. It's low-pressure learning from someone who has the time to get the student to the point that they can start, stop, and turn without losing control. MSF obviously doesn't have the time to do it.

MSF tells the grads that they are only qualified to ride around a parking lot when they leave. WTF does that have to do with a "diesel F250"?

Getting to the dirt is, for a sizable population, a major hurdle.

[ttpete]

Originally Posted by Human Ills

Getting to the dirt is, for a sizable population, a major hurdle.

I've done it using a community college parking lot on a Sunday morning. Doesn't really need to be dirt.