How come?

Prmurat · 10-11-2012, 01:39 PM

Thinking: if someone asks the same question every 6 months... maybe it would happen???
How comw no one has ever come with a power assist sytem for a sidecar handlebar?? If Can Am can do it??? With only one 1/2 arm I would surely enjoy this!!!

Boondox · 10-11-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prmurat

Thinking: if someone asks the same question every 6 months... maybe it would happen???
How comw no one has ever come with a power assist sytem for a sidecar handlebar?? If Can Am can do it??? With only one 1/2 arm I would surely enjoy this!!!

An interesting question! I took a round thru my shoulder in the Marines and always had trouble controlling an ATV on rough terrain...till Yamaha came out with power steering on the 700 Grizzly. On that rig I have no control issues and no discomfort even over fields of boulders.

This should be good!

Prmurat · 10-11-2012, 02:21 PM

Damn...I did not think of ATV....
Maybe something like this?
http://www.superatv.com/CAN-AM-COMMA...242-P1081.aspx

grisezd · 10-11-2012, 02:31 PM

It's not magic, but properly tuning a power steering system is not really a DIY job. So the aftermarket isn't really there yet. Same reason you don't see after market ABS. I'm not saying that someone couldn't get one working, say, taking a system off a can-am or ATV and just living with what they give you. But I don't expect the aftermarket to offer this any time soon!

jaydmc · 10-11-2012, 03:31 PM

Not easy to do, We are using an ATV system on a sidecar bike right now however on this sidecar the rider is in the sidecar so we were able to install the power unit in the steering linkage.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
www.dmcsidecars.com
866-638-1793

grisezd · 10-11-2012, 08:18 PM

In my work I instrument and test cars for steering dynamics, among other things. Today I drove a car with an electronic power steering system that was so ambitious but so wrong. It actually fights against you when you steer "too" quickly. The reason I bring this up is to illustrate how "wrong" you can get it. It was bad, like crashingly bad.

The old hydraulic power steering is going away, replaced with a series of sensors and an electric motor that can push or pull on the steering rack as the programming sees fit. That's great news for the motorcycle, as the drag of hydraulics is no longer necessary. The other side of that coin is now you could conceivably have your handlebars connected to a shaft that drives a sensor, the sensor drives an electric motor, and the motor steers your rig. A wise programmer could set the gain (or boost) at some figure and leave it alone, no fancy tricks. But you'll still have something that feels artificial and gives you less information about the traction of the road under your tire. Or an ambitious programmer, thinking he understands the dynamics of your rig on your road, could adjust the gain based on speed, lateral force, load, etc and try to "enhance" your ride. He'd get it very wrong. (I leave out "she" because she'd get it right!)

I'm happy to wait for power steering on a motorbike. Early ABS sucked on ice. And this is no less critical.

GreatWhiteNorth · 10-12-2012, 12:47 AM

On the positive side, it would seem that power steering (electric or hydraulic) would completely eliminate head shake issues and the need for a steering damper of some sort.

Bobmws · 10-12-2012, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorth

On the positive side, it would seem that power steering (electric or hydraulic) would completely eliminate head shake issues and the need for a steering damper of some sort.

Or could it amplify the head shake thinking that's the input?
How would the motor sensor know the difference between handlebar input and wheel input?

claude · 10-12-2012, 07:09 AM

how about the early ford cylinder that hooked to the tie rod? Thought of trying this a few times but did not. Did drive a pavement sprint car years ago for a guy who had one of them hooked to the drag link. It steered very easy but you had absolutely no feel for the track...weird really.

jaydmc · 10-12-2012, 07:45 AM

I also have looked into the old "Ford" type system, main reason for not going their is the need for a hydrolic pump. On the system we are using on this wheel chair sidecar it is from the ATV insdustry. It is working well and also dampens out input from the wheels, It was designed to be used with a steering box, we are not using a steering box but rather a chain reduction unit as we needed the steering wheel on the left side of a left side mounted sidecar this was the best way we could come up with. This also allows for easy ratio changes. The comany that makes it says that it will not work right on some thing with hadle bars. They did not go into why and I have not looked into it as it really does not matter for what we are doing. Lots of information on the web about electric power steering for ATV's
Jay G
DMC sidecars
www.dmcsidecars.com
866-638-1793

usgser · 10-12-2012, 10:58 AM

IIRC from your earlier posts, you've got two arms it's just that one of them is gimped up and doesn't work all that well if at all?
Maybe just build up your good arm? There's a gentleman(Leftka?) on the SS forum with a totally missing right arm. Gene from Holopaws set up Leftka's Ural with all the hand controls on the left side of the handlebar and he gets around just fine with one arm dragging a hack, he even posts up ride reports of his trips. Hyd steering would be doable but expense with an industrial equip look to it. I've added hyd steering to boats with the old chain-n-cable steering. I used parts from Jastrum I believe was the brand... it's been 25 years ago. You'll need a lever/bellcrank to turn the forks, a correct hyd cyl and a way to power and mount the hyd pump. It's doable but hyd parts are expensive and lashing it all up won't be pretty. I can see why can-am uses power steering since they're turning 2 wheels but to build and offer as an option a system for a single wheel bike would be crazy expensive from the R&D end let alone the costs of getting it DOT certified. It would be a major expense for a bike manufacturer with a very limited market and long term payback on such an option. Best to research what hyd parts are avail off the shelf and design and experiment on you own if needed.
I've got a gimped arm and leg too. Works just not like it should so never checked into options but a place to check for possible parts maybe a power chair company. Yeah they're for folks with bad legs but maybe they use some lighter duty servos etc for steering too? I don't know zip about them but if I were trying to design a system I'd check them out for a parts/idea source and have a sit down with someone that knows fluid dynamics(prolly gonna cost ya) and see what you guys can come up with.
Good luck.

10-11-2012, 01:39 PM	#1
Prmurat ^OP Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Oct 2011 Location: San Francisco, CA Oddometer: 382	How come? Thinking: if someone asks the same question every 6 months... maybe it would happen??? How comw no one has ever come with a power assist sytem for a sidecar handlebar?? If Can Am can do it??? With only one 1/2 arm I would surely enjoy this!!!

10-11-2012, 02:31 PM	#4
grisezd Adventurer Joined: Dec 2004 Location: Central Ohio Oddometer: 97	Rocket surgery! It's not magic, but properly tuning a power steering system is not really a DIY job. So the aftermarket isn't really there yet. Same reason you don't see after market ABS. I'm not saying that someone couldn't get one working, say, taking a system off a can-am or ATV and just living with what they give you. But I don't expect the aftermarket to offer this any time soon!

10-11-2012, 08:18 PM	#6
grisezd Adventurer Joined: Dec 2004 Location: Central Ohio Oddometer: 97	Easy to get wrong... In my work I instrument and test cars for steering dynamics, among other things. Today I drove a car with an electronic power steering system that was so ambitious but so wrong. It actually fights against you when you steer "too" quickly. The reason I bring this up is to illustrate how "wrong" you can get it. It was bad, like crashingly bad. The old hydraulic power steering is going away, replaced with a series of sensors and an electric motor that can push or pull on the steering rack as the programming sees fit. That's great news for the motorcycle, as the drag of hydraulics is no longer necessary. The other side of that coin is now you could conceivably have your handlebars connected to a shaft that drives a sensor, the sensor drives an electric motor, and the motor steers your rig. A wise programmer could set the gain (or boost) at some figure and leave it alone, no fancy tricks. But you'll still have something that feels artificial and gives you less information about the traction of the road under your tire. Or an ambitious programmer, thinking he understands the dynamics of your rig on your road, could adjust the gain based on speed, lateral force, load, etc and try to "enhance" your ride. He'd get it very wrong. (I leave out "she" because she'd get it right!) I'm happy to wait for power steering on a motorbike. Early ABS sucked on ice. And this is no less critical.

10-12-2012, 12:47 AM	#7
GreatWhiteNorth Studly Adventurer Joined: Dec 2009 Location: Winterpeg - site of flatness beyond belief Oddometer: 667	No head shake issues either... On the positive side, it would seem that power steering (electric or hydraulic) would completely eliminate head shake issues and the need for a steering damper of some sort. __________________ Spending my daughter's inheritance one motorcycle at a time. Bikes currently owned: - '91 Honda GL1500 Goldwing with CSC Friendship sidecar (highway pig), - '92 Kawasaki KLR650 with DMC Enduro sidecar (country cruiser).

10-12-2012, 07:09 AM	#9
claude Sidecar Jockey Joined: Mar 2002 Location: Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County) Oddometer: 2,728	how about the early ford cylinder that hooked to the tie rod? Thought of trying this a few times but did not. Did drive a pavement sprint car years ago for a guy who had one of them hooked to the drag link. It steered very easy but you had absolutely no feel for the track...weird really. __________________ Claude Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub at SCT http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/ President: C Stanley Motorsports Inc. http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...rsandTrailers/ http://freedomsidecars.com/

10-11-2012, 02:21 PM	#3
Prmurat ^OP Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Oct 2011 Location: San Francisco, CA Oddometer: 382	Damn...I did not think of ATV.... Maybe something like this? http://www.superatv.com/CAN-AM-COMMA...242-P1081.aspx

10-11-2012, 03:31 PM	#5
jaydmc Studly Adventurer Joined: Sep 2008 Oddometer: 610	Not easy to do, We are using an ATV system on a sidecar bike right now however on this sidecar the rider is in the sidecar so we were able to install the power unit in the steering linkage. Jay G DMC sidecars www.dmcsidecars.com 866-638-1793

10-12-2012, 07:45 AM	#10
jaydmc Studly Adventurer Joined: Sep 2008 Oddometer: 610	I also have looked into the old "Ford" type system, main reason for not going their is the need for a hydrolic pump. On the system we are using on this wheel chair sidecar it is from the ATV insdustry. It is working well and also dampens out input from the wheels, It was designed to be used with a steering box, we are not using a steering box but rather a chain reduction unit as we needed the steering wheel on the left side of a left side mounted sidecar this was the best way we could come up with. This also allows for easy ratio changes. The comany that makes it says that it will not work right on some thing with hadle bars. They did not go into why and I have not looked into it as it really does not matter for what we are doing. Lots of information on the web about electric power steering for ATV's Jay G DMC sidecars www.dmcsidecars.com 866-638-1793

10-12-2012, 10:58 AM	#11
usgser Beastly Adventurer Joined: Nov 2005 Location: Westside WA Oddometer: 1,484	IIRC from your earlier posts, you've got two arms it's just that one of them is gimped up and doesn't work all that well if at all? Maybe just build up your good arm? There's a gentleman(Leftka?) on the SS forum with a totally missing right arm. Gene from Holopaws set up Leftka's Ural with all the hand controls on the left side of the handlebar and he gets around just fine with one arm dragging a hack, he even posts up ride reports of his trips. Hyd steering would be doable but expense with an industrial equip look to it. I've added hyd steering to boats with the old chain-n-cable steering. I used parts from Jastrum I believe was the brand... it's been 25 years ago. You'll need a lever/bellcrank to turn the forks, a correct hyd cyl and a way to power and mount the hyd pump. It's doable but hyd parts are expensive and lashing it all up won't be pretty. I can see why can-am uses power steering since they're turning 2 wheels but to build and offer as an option a system for a single wheel bike would be crazy expensive from the R&D end let alone the costs of getting it DOT certified. It would be a major expense for a bike manufacturer with a very limited market and long term payback on such an option. Best to research what hyd parts are avail off the shelf and design and experiment on you own if needed. I've got a gimped arm and leg too. Works just not like it should so never checked into options but a place to check for possible parts maybe a power chair company. Yeah they're for folks with bad legs but maybe they use some lighter duty servos etc for steering too? I don't know zip about them but if I were trying to design a system I'd check them out for a parts/idea source and have a sit down with someone that knows fluid dynamics(prolly gonna cost ya) and see what you guys can come up with. Good luck.

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