ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Trip Planning
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-03-2013, 04:17 AM   #166
StriderJim
Adventurer
 
StriderJim's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Location: N.C., USA
Oddometer: 23
People who don't like, don't use, and don't know anything about guns are invariably great authorities on them.

Their advice is often something of the form: "you'll be shaking so bad you won't be able to hit anything".

What they're describing, of course, is what THEY THEMSELVES would be doing.

Their imagined world doesn't include people who are 1) not policemen and yet, 2) actually know how to handle firearms and can do so under stress.

What these 'authorities' never know is that there are well-trained 'citizens' walking around in the US. They also don't know, and wouldn't believe if you told them, that a lot of (most?) cops are not particularly good shots, nor have most trained under stress.

That said, most gun owners rely on the firearm as a magic talisman, and are sure that when the time comes, they will "rise to the occasion". In fact, they will fall to their level of training. They get by with this magical thinking because, for the most part, people never need to use guns.





Quote:
Originally Posted by 2rock View Post
I did an eight week trip to AK this year in may and june, yep froze my but off, spring never arrived! Saw lots of black bear along the hwys, and only 2 grizzlys, they where both on the Dempster. I never met anyone who lived in the backcountry that carried bear spray, up in Keno City, the Canadians laughed and said bear spray was for the city people, they carried guns, I noticed they didn't say if they carried rifles or pistols. In Haines AK I met a retired state trooper who specialized in bear maulings, he carried a SW 460.
Next year I'm going back to AK, I'll bypass Canada, and take a 460. I think some people on here that push the bear spray are anti gun anyway.
btw.. Never test fire your bear spray in camp, that's an attractant.

StriderJim screwed with this post 08-03-2013 at 04:25 AM
StriderJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 10:55 PM   #167
aquadog
Dude Buddha
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Yukon
Oddometer: 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderJim View Post
People who don't like, don't use, and don't know anything about guns are invariably great authorities on them.

That said, most gun owners rely on the firearm as a magic talisman, and are sure that when the time comes, they will "rise to the occasion". In fact, they will fall to their level of training. They get by with this magical thinking because, for the most part, people never need to use guns.
I pretty much agree with the above, with one addition.

Just to clarify, there are about 15 residents in Keno, and that's not a good representation of the Yukon population or what can work overall. There is often a reason people live so far from the mainstream...or down in the holler. Sorry, Kenoites.

This keeps coming up in the forum, usually as "those Commie Canadians don't allow my handgun" (and if I can't take my gun, I'm not going there). Canada has a very high per captia gun ownership rate, we just use them as tools - which can include bear defence. The right gun works. However, bear spray is quite effective and well tested, and is very convenient. Don't discount it.

One thing that becomes apparent on this forum - although not in this thread, which has been really reasonable and respectful of other opinions - is how little a lot of gun owners know about ballistics, or how tough bears are, but how willing these people are to discount solutions other than a gun. Bears are not furry people, and your .45 won't solve the problem.

I agree that people who don't like guns often speak with great authority on the subject, but many gun owners are equally willing to ignore facts. That's the "magical talisman" part, which I totally agree with - my gun will make me invincible. It's not magic, it's a tool, if you're going to use one, know what it can do, how, when.

For fun, try ripping 3/8" plywood like paper, with your *bear hands*, snapping studs off like toothpicks, and sticking your fingernails in and splitting studs lengthways. This isn't a furry person.

My GF cabin on a mining creek near Dawson City got hit by a grizzly last fall, see photo. We boarded it up as best we could in November at -30, then I went back this summer to rebuild walls. A new bear had moved in and was bugging her. One of the tools in the truck is not like the others. I'm a 95% bear spray guy, but sometimes a permanent solution is called for. Does that make me AC/DC? Choose the tool for the time and place, and keep an open mind.

Most of the advice on this thread about clean camping, etc. is right on. For anyone who has done much rescue or emergency service work, you know that the accident/incident avoided is the best one of all.






aquadog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 12:24 PM   #168
GrizGirl
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Loving life in tha mountains :)
Oddometer: 1,335
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2rock View Post
I did an eight week trip to AK this year in may and june, yep froze my but off, spring never arrived! Saw lots of black bear along the hwys, and only 2 grizzlys, they where both on the Dempster. I never met anyone who lived in the backcountry that carried bear spray, up in Keno City, the Canadians laughed and said bear spray was for the city people, they carried guns, I noticed they didn't say if they carried rifles or pistols. In Haines AK I met a retired state trooper who specialized in bear maulings, he carried a SW 460.
Next year I'm going back to AK, I'll bypass Canada, and take a 460. I think some people on here that push the bear spray are anti gun anyway.
btw.. Never test fire your bear spray in camp, that's an attractant.
I push bear spray and I own guns so your comment about people pushing bear spray being anti gun is misinformed and just plain wrong.

I spend time every summer photographing grizzly bears in Alaska and the Yellowstone area. I stay at a wilderness lodge when I go to Katmai and the manager has been managing bear lodges and guiding fishing expeditions for decades and is a native of Alaska. The lodge where he and his wife spend 6 months of every year has one grizzly bear per square mile and zero roads - the only way there is float plane or boat. They have guns but they don't carry them in the field, they carry bear spray and flares. Those that really know bears, especially grizzly bears, carry bear spray.

BTW, consider yourself lucky that you missed the hot spell that happened in Alaska in June. I spent 10 days in Kodiak and Katmai and it never rained, I saw very few clouds, and it was hotter than I'd ever seen it there. Fairbanks and Anchorage had record highs as well. I would have much rather had it be the normal cool and wet that I am used to when I visit. It was fun to get the pics of the bears cooling off in the water though, so that was a bonus of the heat.
GrizGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 04:00 PM   #169
aquadog
Dude Buddha
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Yukon
Oddometer: 654
More blunt than I was, but absolutely right from my point of view. Nice job! Want to trade? And yes, we went from a late, cold spring to worrying about forest fires. Nice summer this year.
aquadog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 09:01 PM   #170
2rock
Motoholic
 
2rock's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: the sticks, WA
Oddometer: 45
[QUOTE=GrizGirl;22049182]I push bear spray and I own guns so your comment about people pushing bear spray being anti gun is misinformed and just plain wrong.

Wow, nice job twisting what I said, charge off half-cocked much?
2rock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 08:31 AM   #171
GrizGirl
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Loving life in tha mountains :)
Oddometer: 1,335
[QUOTE=2rock;22052758]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizGirl View Post
I push bear spray and I own guns so your comment about people pushing bear spray being anti gun is misinformed and just plain wrong.

Wow, nice job twisting what I said, charge off half-cocked much?
So I guess you didn't say: "I think some people on here that push the bear spray are anti gun anyway." My bad.
GrizGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 03:48 PM   #172
2rock
Motoholic
 
2rock's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: the sticks, WA
Oddometer: 45
[QUOTE=GrizGirl;22055384]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2rock View Post

So I guess you didn't say: "I think some people on here that push the bear spray are anti gun anyway." My bad.
Some, but u want to make it personal, well I don't really give s..t. This is a motorcycle forum, as such, most are concerned with a bear busting into a tent while camping on a trip. If that happens I would rather grab my 460 than a can of spray, but that's just me.
2rock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 08:47 PM   #173
aquadog
Dude Buddha
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Yukon
Oddometer: 654
Well, at least you picked a pistol that might do some good. I find it surprising how many people make the assumption that a 9mm or .45 will be effective - that's the "magic talisman" effect StriderJim referred to. Or they say "I'll wound the bear and scare it away", which 1) isn't going to happen with a pissed off bear, 2) is repugnant. If you're going to shoot, kill it.

A lot of stories about the little old Alaska granny who regularly offed bears with a pistol are just that - anecdotes without back up. Spray has been tested, and does work.

I'll stick to spray most of the time, but appreciate your sense in using a BIG pistol!
aquadog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2013, 10:35 PM   #174
chris73
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2013
Location: vancouver island
Oddometer: 220
I have lived in bear country my whole life, and have come upon bears walking on trails. It happens so fast, that I would rely on my bearspray first. I have never been charged, but I have had my shed tore apart in Kitimat BC by a black bear. Rely on your bearspray. It works. Research it's effectiveness on the intrernet and you will see. I also pack a 44 mag short barrelled rifle with hard cast hot loads. This is my black bear cougar gun. It helps me sleep at night on the island. Up north I pack a coach gun with hevi shot bear sabots or challenger slugs. Americans have Brenneke and dixie. All the gun really does for me is give me peace of mind. At a distance I can fire a warning shot... never have. Close up and taken by surprise, the bear spray would come out first. It's never an issue for me, because I keep my camp very clean. I set up a cooking area away from my tent. Keep my food cached and soaps and smelly things in a seal line and away from the tent.
chris73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 03:38 PM   #175
243Win
Studly Adventurer
 
243Win's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Oddometer: 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris73 View Post
It helps me sleep at night ... All the gun really does for me is give me peace of mind.
That is pretty much what I've told folks I've met while out and about if they happen to inquire "if & why" I may have a firearm with me.

"It's pretty much a sleep aid."

I'll usually have a firearm and a can of spray. And while pondering it alone at night out in the woods, I tend to have more faith in the spray as I think about it.

Only had a bear in camp once. Slept right through it in my tent. I get up and my buddy that slept in the truck bed with a canopy was all

"Did ya see it?"

See what.

"The bear!"

Tracks everywhere in camp. We'd camped next to stream full of spawning salmon while out elk hunting. Since then simply possessing a bear tag has been deterrent enough.
__________________
Excellent, our country is now run by folks that would allow you to smoke pot in Washington State, but not buy a Big-Gulp in New York.

10 State Trip 2010
2011, $1000 in the pocket, how far can we go
243Win is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 03:53 PM   #176
_cy_
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,578
Canada is not very gun friendly .. flares has been mentioned and of course bear spray.

have carried pepper spray before in heavy bear country, but never flare guns.

A Molins No. 1, 1 inch calibre Very pistol, c1940, made by Berridge Ltd.
_cy_ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2013, 03:24 PM   #177
LifeScribe
Adventurer
 
LifeScribe's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
Location: Austin, Texas
Oddometer: 27
Get a Judge or Be Judged

Bears generally won't bother you unless you provoke them or have food improperly stored (ideally hung 10-15 in a tree- 50 feet from your campsite).

Have solo camped/ hiked in bear country numerous times-- and you're right it is definitely a bit un-nerving.

Have had a few close calls with bears on the trails, but if you make noise and show them you're not a threat they'll walk away. Even had a rare encounter with a Cougar - about 25 yards from me (note-- very seldom if ever will you encounter these-- did not have bear spray but managed to walk away from this. After this incident I bought a Tarus Judge (Revolver) which fires a .410 slug. It was much more comforting having that in the backcountry.

-Jeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaise W View Post
We don't have much of a bear problem down here in Texas, other than Big Bend that is. It's not a real problem there either since there are few around. Up north in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, etc., that's a different story. On my recent trip we only camped once, at Echo Park in Dinosaur National Monument, but there were signs posted warning of bear activity in the area. I didn't get a lot of sleep that night, and neither did my son who was set up next to me. We also passed close to an area west of Yellowstone where a camper was recently pulled out of their tent, killed, and eaten. Other campers nearby were attacked at the same time by several other bears traveling with the sow who was responsible for the fatality.

My question is, for those who camp in such areas regularly, what do you to get a good nights sleep? I know the odds are against having any encounters, but then some have had several in close succession. I keep bear spray handy, but if you are in your sleeping bag, inside your tent, and it's pitch black when your are grabbed from outside, what good is it going to do. You'll never get a chance to use it, even if you can find it! Is there an answer, or do you just play the odds and try to put it out of your mind.
LifeScribe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2013, 03:55 PM   #178
Rusty Shovel
Banned
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Oddometer: 67
I keep a .357 and Ambien. That way, I wake up in the morning and wonder how I got all those holes in my tent.

Seriously, though, I was once told to MISS the bear with my first shot. The loud sound and flash will likely confuse and frighten the bear. Even a grizzly will run if startled. Hurting it, I'm told, can have an undesirable effect; the pain response and resulting adrenaline dump can cause a bear to become extremely aggressive.

Of course, if the flash and boom doesn't deter the bear I'm gonna shoot it as many times as I can. Figure if I'm gonna be bear poop, I want the animal to suffer. Perhaps it would die of infection in a couple weeks or so. Not soon enough to help me, but I'm spiteful that way.

I have no illusions about the likelihood of stopping a determined grizzly with a handgun.
Rusty Shovel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2013, 04:12 PM   #179
Callahan
Beastly Adventurer
 
Callahan's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Pacific Rim
Oddometer: 1,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Shovel View Post
I keep a .357 and Ambien. That way, I wake up in the morning and wonder how I got all those holes in my tent.

Seriously, though, I was once told to MISS the bear with my first shot. The loud sound and flash will likely confuse and frighten the bear. Even a grizzly will run if startled. Hurting it, I'm told, can have an undesirable effect; the pain response and resulting adrenaline dump can cause a bear to become extremely aggressive.

Of course, if the flash and boom doesn't deter the bear I'm gonna shoot it as many times as I can. Figure if I'm gonna be bear poop, I want the animal to suffer. Perhaps it would die of infection in a couple weeks or so. Not soon enough to help me, but I'm spiteful that way.

I have no illusions about the likelihood of stopping a determined grizzly with a handgun.
Maybe by it taking a couple of painful weeks to die then that is very painful with you sloshing around in its belly, and that sounds pretty good and spiteful ?
Callahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2013, 09:29 AM   #180
mefly2
Beastly Adventurer
 
mefly2's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Location: Big Sky Country
Oddometer: 1,207
Several years as a NPS LE ranger in Glacier NP allowed several close encounters with and a respect for the black and grizzly bear as well as the 12 gauge shotgun... Feeling really secure with a 44 mag handgun is like saying you'd go bear hunting with a 30-30. We spent countless hours in LE working with OC and "bear spray" - not a good thing for the untrained as it has a very bad effect on most humans and a not very consistent effect on other mammals... sometimes the sprayer gets it worse than the sprayee.YMMV; just my experience ...
__________________
----------------> jer-
30+ years with RTs...then to F/GS; now *Finally*
the BMW: R1200GSW, factory low seat & lower crash bars;
Touratech: Upper Crash Bars, big foot, pannier rack, ZegaPro panniers;
Fuzeblock, Rigid Dually D2 + yellow covers; Wunderlich bar risers w/ Q-adjust

mefly2 screwed with this post 09-26-2013 at 09:50 AM
mefly2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 08:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014