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Old 03-09-2013, 10:12 PM   #76
XpressCS
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Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
When considering whether or not a spring type is "superior" over another, you have to consider what the desired characteristics are. Leafs are incredibly strong, but if you ask me which springs are better in a Wrangler I'd choose coils due to the superior ride quality. Not coincidentally, that's the reason most passenger vehicle manufacturers choose them too.
Leaf Springs can ride just as comfortably as a coil spring setup. Clearly you have never been in a Jeep with a proper leaf spring setup. There's more than a large heap of Jeepers on a large Jeep Forum that can take you for a spin around the block to prove it.

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Originally Posted by longtallsally View Post
I totally hear you on this one. However, you cannot build a more capable machine for much less money. Lame, but effective example: A TJ Rubicon is about $15k or so unmolested. Lift (long arm) and 35" tires is $5k easy. Then gears are $1k. Then you might want to beef up the axles a touch ~$1k. Then you have the requisite other doo dads like a winch, some spare parts, storage system b/c storage is non existent in the TJ/YJ and you are at close to another $2k. This is for what is now a 7-8 year old vehicle.
Yes you can, there's dozens upon dozens of build threads out there of people building incredibly capable rigs for less than what you could buy a brand new TJ back in the day. You're not sourcing your parts properly if you think it's going to cost you $30K to build a Wrangler up.

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OK, heck with that, let's go dirt cheap and do a YJ. Call it $5k for a decent one with a 4.0L. Depending on how crazy you go with the lift, you are still looking at $2k+ for lift and tires. Oh shoot, the D30 is generally poop for anything over 33s, so now I'm looking at anywhere from a grand to $6 grand for a built front axle and the same for the rear. And of course you gotta get the Atlas T case. At this point, you should be building a full cage and have correct seating. Oh yeah, don't forget the ARBs, compressor, gears, armor, storage, winch, etc. still on the docket.
A D30 is a lot stronger than you give it credit for. Lots of locals around me run it on 35" tires without issue, even running around places like Ocotillo or superstition regularly.

A dirt cheap YJ is $5k to you? Around here you could have a 2.5L with some 75K miles on it driven by a grandma for less than half of that, unmolested and rust free. Don't knock the 2.5L, it's got plenty of power for a trail rig, especially in low gear. There's Jeepers who are easily keeping up with the 6 cyl Jeeps with a 2.5L. It's all about the driver.

And you don't need half of what you list. An Atlast t-case is a luxury item, not a necessity. Lockers are optional (most would throw a lunchbox in the front and call it a day) and you can add to your existing cage very inexpensively and easily to effectively triple its strength.

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With each of these, you can save some modicum of cash by doing your own work some of the fabrication, but at that point you are into a months long build minimum and I'd rather be out making memories than dreaming about them.
A month? A MONTH? You think it takes us crazy fools a month to build a Jeep?

Quote:
Also, in both cases you will still have something that rides like crap, can't tow much more than a lawn mower, handles for shit, and gets horrific economy while barely having enough room for 2 passengers. AND, in both cases, I'm in the same ballpark in terms of cost for a new JK. And I don't have the warranty, comfort, drivability, and at this point resale value of a JK.
False. Again, you pick and choose your ride quality with the components YOU choose to buy. Buying cheap junk is going to give you a shit ride. Going with high quality components is going to greatly improve your ride quality. And like I said, leaf springs can ride just as smoothly as coil springs depending on the type of springs and shocks you go wit.

Quote:
ALSO, I'm to the point that for the amount of cash I've put out for the capability, I'm going to be a bit pissed when I bash it up on the Hammers, Fordyce, Dusy, or whatever other hardcore trails you'd want to hit with that capability.
Not everyone runs Hammers, I personally wouldn't. But, if I'm building it, I'm building it to enjoy it. Who gives a flying f**** if you beat it up? It's a JEEP! It's made to take you places, money is only money. Sometimes you spend it on things to give you pleasure.

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If you want to keep either a TJ or YJ relatively stock, for the reasons I mentioned earlier, you won't be ANYWHERE close to the same capability in ANY category other than acquisition cost, which then turns it into an apples to oranges comparison as at that point you have different goals in mind.
Agreed, Apples to Oranges. Obviously a Rubicon is more capable than a base model, so you can't compare a YJ to a TJ Rubicon, or a JK Rubicon. Comparing a TJ Rubicon to a JK Rubicon would be more on par.

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In my opinion, the JK is a much more intelligent decision for someone with a family who is strapped for time and is perfectly happy with a new Rubicon that can do its namesake with very minimal modifications. Plus I drove close to 150 miles today taking both dogs, baby, and all the beach gear over to the coast. I got over 20mpg, set the cruise, listened to the satellite radio, had the heated seats on, and drove in perfect quiet comfort. And because it still is a Jeep, I didn't care that I put 2 stinky dogs in the back and whatnot.
To each his own. I personally don't like them. They feel more like a car and less like a Jeep.

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The initial JKUR at a little over $30k was a bit steep and gutless for a what I refer to as a set of axles and a transfer case surrounded by mediocrity. The interior redesign in '11 coupled with the new techno heavy motor in '12 made it not only a very capable Jeep first and foremost, but also a very nice car.
Agreed, the 3.8L models are gutless. The 3.6L models are a lot peppier.

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Of course, this is all my opinion and the logic I used. I've not even touched the decision paradigm I used when introducing another car that is more practical for daily use where things like double the maintenance, space, insurance and registration hassles come into play...
Like I said, it's all personal preference. I personally look for a project when I look for something to have fun with. If I bought a Jeep just as a DD I'd not be a very smart person, especially with the rising cost of gas and maintenance fees. I'd rather have something like an old POS Civic that gets 35mpg and is perfectly happy using used motor oil in the engine (or my KLR) that keeps me from spending a bundle and lets me have more funding for my projects

BUILT, NOT BOUGHT.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:53 PM   #77
Big Bird 928
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Originally Posted by XpressCS View Post
The lag between the throttle peddle and the TB servo response was what I was referring to. That is why I will take a cable throttle any day. And this is coming from someone who has driven over 1000 vehicles equipped with the modern drive by wire type of throttle peddle assemble, from numerous makes and models.
You sir are amazing! You can tell the difference between a few milliseconds of computing time and the few fractions of a second that it takes a carburetor to react! If you are ever in a position where because a vehicle will not go from idle to WOT in .2 seconds (except for some high end racing applications) then you made some major errors long before that point, not because of that point. I like you have a very numerous experience with many different years and types of vehicles including making parts and rebuilding said vehicles.

There "may" be a difference in reaction, but not a difference due to the electronic throttle (vs cable) that is able to be recognized by the human senses, but there are differences due to the mass of the flywheel and the speed of the rev increases that you may recognize from motor to motor.

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Originally Posted by XpressCS View Post
I hate the JK for numerous reasons that I am too lazy and tired to list at the time of this posting, but if someone really wants I can post all of the reasons. I will say the new sound systems they include from the factory are probably some of the best systems out of any vehicle (that goes for all newer Chrysler vehicles).
I think this is the root of your complaints about the electronic throttle, if you don't like a vehicle you are much more apt to pick it apart and find complaints about it.

You sir are more than welcome to your opinions, just like we are ours, and I salute you for expressing them.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:28 AM   #78
XpressCS
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Originally Posted by Big Bird 928 View Post
You sir are amazing! You can tell the difference between a few milliseconds of computing time and the few fractions of a second that it takes a carburetor to react! If you are ever in a position where because a vehicle will not go from idle to WOT in .2 seconds (except for some high end racing applications) then you made some major errors long before that point, not because of that point. I like you have a very numerous experience with many different years and types of vehicles including making parts and rebuilding said vehicles.

There "may" be a difference in reaction, but not a difference due to the electronic throttle (vs cable) that is able to be recognized by the human senses, but there are differences due to the mass of the flywheel and the speed of the rev increases that you may recognize from motor to motor.
The throttle lag is definitely noticeable, and it's not the engine. The engines rev fine. It's even worse with the manuals because you don't get the instantaneous rev that I am so acquainted with, so your entire balance is thrown off.

Quote:
I think this is the root of your complaints about the electronic throttle, if you don't like a vehicle you are much more apt to pick it apart and find complaints about it.
It's not that. I can get used to it, there's just a metric shit ton of things about the new JK that I just don't like (how long until they go unibody to cut costs?).

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You sir are more than welcome to your opinions, just like we are ours, and I salute you for expressing them.
Why thank you. I personally don't have a problem with other peoples opinions, because everyone's will vary. What I do have issue with is when someone's opinion is factually proven to be incorrect, yet they still go around picketing like it's the truth.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:34 AM   #79
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Enough with the nagging.

Anyone done a headlight upgrade to these things yet? I've read about the LED options that they can pulse or flash. The glass lensed euro (IPF? HELLA?) H4 setups. These seem much cheaper. Definitely better than the stock lamps.
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:10 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XpressCS View Post
Leaf Springs can ride just as comfortably as a coil spring setup. Clearly you have never been in a Jeep with a proper leaf spring setup. There's more than a large heap of Jeepers on a large Jeep Forum that can take you for a spin around the block to prove it.
I have worked on and been in some very well built CJ's with no expense spared (I turned wrenches for 20 years in a previous career). While improved considerably over stock, they don't offer the ride quality of a current generation JK

Quote:
Originally Posted by XpressCS View Post
A dirt cheap YJ is $5k to you? Around here you could have a 2.5L with some 75K miles on it driven by a grandma for less than half of that, unmolested and rust free. Don't knock the 2.5L, it's got plenty of power for a trail rig, especially in low gear. There's Jeepers who are easily keeping up with the 6 cyl Jeeps with a 2.5L. It's all about the driver.
Around here a stripper rusted out YJ with 200,000 miles on it will bring $5k easy. If you want lower miles/no rust you're looking at $7500 +

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Originally Posted by XpressCS View Post
To each his own. I personally don't like them. They feel more like a car and less like a Jeep.
That much is definitely true. They are more car-like in their feel than any previous version. The first big step in this direction was the TJ. But that's fine with me. As I get older I want a more comfortable, less raw Wrangler. The fact that they have continued to gain capability while getting more civilized is a perfect combination. That's why I'm on Wrangler #6. Jeep has continued to develop them to better accommodate more people. That's also why they continue to have such sales success.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:48 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by (none) View Post
Enough with the nagging.

Anyone done a headlight upgrade to these things yet? I've read about the LED options that they can pulse or flash. The glass lensed euro (IPF? HELLA?) H4 setups. These seem much cheaper. Definitely better than the stock lamps.
I went to install the Truck-Lite LED headlights last night. Discovered I needed the pigtail to mate with the new connector style on the 2007+ wiring harness. It's on order. Put the LED foglight bulbs in though. They really make the light from the stock headlights look yellow. I'm hoping that the Truck-Lite's are a significant upgrade.
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:01 PM   #82
Carlo Muro
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the first full tank through it gave me 17.8. This was 1/3 interstate and 2/3 two lane blacktop. All in fairly hilly country.
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:30 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Carlo Muro View Post
the first full tank through it gave me 17.8. This was 1/3 interstate and 2/3 two lane blacktop. All in fairly hilly country.
Either you are getting better fuel than we get here, or my jeep is broken. I struggle to get high 16's, and that's only if I short shift the crap out of it.
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:52 PM   #84
Carlo Muro
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Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
Either you are getting better fuel than we get here, or my jeep is broken. I struggle to get high 16's, and that's only if I short shift the crap out of it.
that might be your problem. gearing higher helps your mileage...to a point. You might benefit by letting it rev out just a bit more. I don't normally run the absolute top gear that will get the job done if that means lugging it below about 1500. I tried to keep it at 2500 or the top of the green line on the tach.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:02 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Carlo Muro View Post
that might be your problem. gearing higher helps your mileage...to a point. You might benefit by letting it rev out just a bit more. I don't normally run the absolute top gear that will get the job done if that means lugging it below about 1500. I tried to keep it at 2500 or the top of the green line on the tach.
Tried shifting at 2500. That yielded 15 mpg I'm now shifting at 2000 - 2200 depending on the gear. I can feel what is either a power band and/or valve timing change right around 1500 rpm, so I'm trying to time my shifts so the next gear lands me right there. That's how I've managed high 16's.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:24 PM   #86
XpressCS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
I have worked on and been in some very well built CJ's with no expense spared (I turned wrenches for 20 years in a previous career). While improved considerably over stock, they don't offer the ride quality of a current generation JK
I think we should agree to disagree

Quote:
Around here a stripper rusted out YJ with 200,000 miles on it will bring $5k easy. If you want lower miles/no rust you're looking at $7500 +
I must be lucky to live here. I think I remember reading that the concentration of Jeeps in California is higher than anywhere else in the world.

Quote:
That much is definitely true. They are more car-like in their feel than any previous version. The first big step in this direction was the TJ. But that's fine with me. As I get older I want a more comfortable, less raw Wrangler. The fact that they have continued to gain capability while getting more civilized is a perfect combination. That's why I'm on Wrangler #6. Jeep has continued to develop them to better accommodate more people. That's also why they continue to have such sales success.
I'm sure as my youthful asshat self gets older, my old ass will begin to appreciate a better ride quality, so I can agree with you on that.

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Originally Posted by (none) View Post
Anyone done a headlight upgrade to these things yet? I've read about the LED options that they can pulse or flash. The glass lensed euro (IPF? HELLA?) H4 setups. These seem much cheaper. Definitely better than the stock lamps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonS View Post
I went to install the Truck-Lite LED headlights last night. Discovered I needed the pigtail to mate with the new connector style on the 2007+ wiring harness. It's on order. Put the LED foglight bulbs in though. They really make the light from the stock headlights look yellow. I'm hoping that the Truck-Lite's are a significant upgrade.
The most popular lamps around some of the other forums are the E-Code style lamps, which produce a better 'playing field' of light to work with while keeping a soft cutoff and using the ever so popular H4 bulbs. They won't pass DOT inspections, but they're a worthwhile upgrade for those of us who manage to get around inspections.

HID lamps just produce a piss poor output pattern that blinds everyone (I am routinely blinded by the idiots around here sporting HID's), not to mention they are on the same level of legality as cutting the CAT or removing emissions equipment. So HID's are not the way to go if you want a better light distribution and spread. As far as those who are using LED's go, I have heard nothing but praise about them, and I plan on upgrading my Jeep to them during its rebuild.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:27 PM   #87
XpressCS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlo Muro View Post
the first full tank through it gave me 17.8. This was 1/3 interstate and 2/3 two lane blacktop. All in fairly hilly country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
Either you are getting better fuel than we get here, or my jeep is broken. I struggle to get high 16's, and that's only if I short shift the crap out of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlo Muro View Post
that might be your problem. gearing higher helps your mileage...to a point. You might benefit by letting it rev out just a bit more. I don't normally run the absolute top gear that will get the job done if that means lugging it below about 1500. I tried to keep it at 2500 or the top of the green line on the tach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
Tried shifting at 2500. That yielded 15 mpg I'm now shifting at 2000 - 2200 depending on the gear. I can feel what is either a power band and/or valve timing change right around 1500 rpm, so I'm trying to time my shifts so the next gear lands me right there. That's how I've managed high 16's.
Well, you guys ARE driving a very well decorated brick wall

Best I have heard of is about 20mpg, even with the new 3.6L on a stock platform, hills and city driving are obviously going to kill your MPG a bit.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:08 PM   #88
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Xpress, you are too smart of an automotive engineer for me. I'm out. Enjoy your YJ, that is a 1989...
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:40 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by XpressCS View Post
Well, you guys ARE driving a very well decorated brick wall

Best I have heard of is about 20mpg, even with the new 3.6L on a stock platform, hills and city driving are obviously going to kill your MPG a bit.
I pulled 21.5 real mpg (23 indicated) out of my previous 3.8 Rubicon. This one should do better yet. It may just be a factor of break in.
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:36 AM   #90
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I pulled 21.5 real mpg (23 indicated) out of my previous 3.8 Rubicon. This one should do better yet. It may just be a factor of break in.
Wow, my cj has gotten a best of 11... Normally it is around 6-8, with a worst of 4. Apparently I get the best mileage with all 4 tires on the ground...

sent from my abacus.
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