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Old 10-21-2012, 08:22 PM   #166
DavidBanner
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Originally Posted by fancy_ninja View Post
Women test the men to whom they are attracted in their social spheres. If a woman pushes and a man concedes, she "wins" and "loses." She "wins" in that she gets her way, but she "loses" respect from a man who cannot be tamed-a paradigm of masculine goodness who can LEAD and INSPIRE her to be the best version of herself, one who can protect her and whom she wishes to protect.

It comes down to breeding; women test in order to determine if a mate is worthy or not. Women, like men, love a challenge. I think it's engrained in our natures to test and push to find a worthy mate to see if and to what extent he will both challenge and protect us; if we test and push a man, and he concedes (no matter how small the compromise) it is both a victory and a loss.

You didn't put an unscented dryer sheet in the load with the sheets? You didn't get the right kind of milk at the store? You want to keep your muddy riding boots by the door? Your clothes can't make it to the hamper? You didn't or did do this or that..these challenges can come in the form of nagging, or even ultimatums. I'm not gonna sit here and tell you I haven't nagged myself..but I will tell you I'm now conscious of the ways I challenge and WHY I challenge, and realize it boils down to attraction and the need to protect and be protected. It's a test for breeding and the proliferation of our species. Because I'm CONSCIOUS of this, I'm able to modify my behavior accordingly, and channel this need into focusing more on my guy and his needs and goals, rather than the menial, worthless things that don't BENEFIT HUMANITY. Apologies if this sounds epic, but IMHO we are talking about passing on genetic material to future generations. Somewhere in a female's genetic makeup this pushing and testing is ingrained in our behavior when potential mates are in our social sphere. I realize I'm speaking in generalizations, but generalizations are there as they have been repeated behaviors of a specific group. In the spirit of this thread, I'm speaking in generalizations; however, I acknowledge there are exceptions to every rule, and again, these are just my 2 cents..

Please don't hear me saying there's not a place for compromise in a relationship; it is quite the opposite. Without discussion nothing can be resolved. Don't go the opposite way with this, please, and refuse to discuss or be logical in response to your SO. I'm merely trying to show, from a woman's perspective, some of the reasons we test, demand, and try to force the men in our lives to act, not act, do, not do, perform, or not perform in a certain way. Realize you're in her sphere and INFLUENTIAL and IMPORTANT to her. That kind of knowledge is powerful, and will hopefully incite some good thoughts/discussions. Thanks to my best friend for hours of great cerebral discussions on this matter.

Just some thoughts..

psychobabble.

the bottom line is that humans like who they like and don't like who they don't like.

attraction is far more finicky than simple "challenge" and win/loss. we'll make excuses for the most egregious behavior (wife beating) if we like a person enough...conversely, we'll harp on the smallest thing (used the wrong dryer sheets!) if we're not sufficiently attracted.
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:37 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by DavidBanner View Post
psychobabble.

attraction is far more finicky than simple "challenge" and win/loss. we'll make excuses for the most egregious behavior (wife beating) if we like a person enough...conversely, we'll harp on the smallest thing (used the wrong dryer sheets!) if we're not sufficiently attracted.
This is true, we make concessions for those we've deemed worthy and challenge us for better or worse, and, to some extent, take advantage of those who do not through nagging/harping/ultimatums. However, in answering the emasculation question, I merely posed my opinion on women who don't "allow" their men to have bikes or whatever..it's a power struggle in that sense. Attraction in and of itself is a much more complicated animal, but the causes and effects of emasculation of the male are what I was attempting to address here through the power struggle/test and need for challenge from a female's perspective. Again, as stated before, just some thoughts..

-Psychobabble out!
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Old 10-21-2012, 09:06 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by DavidBanner View Post
psychobabble.

the bottom line is that humans like who they like and don't like who they don't like.

attraction is far more finicky than simple "challenge" and win/loss. we'll make excuses for the most egregious behavior (wife beating) if we like a person enough...conversely, we'll harp on the smallest thing (used the wrong dryer sheets!) if we're not sufficiently attracted.
Ad hominem attack to dismiss argument. Ignore argument. Insert bottom line of why I am right.

Perhaps she is wrong, but I give her argument more credit than yours. This is simply on observation that she attacked noones character and merely stated her opinion while you attacked her character and inserted your opinion as the "bottom line".

Most of us have heard the generalization that women go after the jerks and ignore the nice guys, and there is a reason for this; many of the "nice" guys have an ephemeral personal identity, and do not possess the masculine characteristics necessary to stand up for themselves (in regards to women). The jerks, as terrible as it is and as wrong as they treat the women, stand up to their women and exhibit some form of power. Power is attractive to a female, even though that power can come in many forms (being able to slough off the negatives in life and look optimistically to the future, societal power, etc).

Evolved masculinity, in my opinion, is a man who is willing to communicate, entertain (always) and participate in compromise (when it is logical), demands respect for himself but also demands himself to treat others with respect, yet still attempts to better himself as a man- better the aspects of his personality he invests time into.

While I dont think it is by the collusion of some men in a dark room somewhere, I think over time masculinity has been redirected to useless avenues; more specifically, the proliferation of our capitalist global model of commerce has commercialized masculinity (as it has femininity). Im not condemning capitalism here so much as pointing out that an excessive amount of any one thing is not good (except motorcycles ); the founders of the United States for instance made it clear in correspondence with one another that the United States would not survive a morally bankrupt society (and in their case many of them favored religion as the moral backdrop for a strong country, though opinions differed and differ). Masculinity has been directed to roars in sport stadiums, leather chaps and the "social motorcycle" badboy, using immoral force to accrue financial wealth, and beers with buddies on poker night. While all of these things are fine in moderation, at some point a man has to step up and direct his masculinity at the ills of a society. Some men certainly do this, and many who dont would if society gave them the chance. It is a cold and exploitative world out there under the surface of smiling models on billboards; this is part of what draws many of us here (in my opinion again)..
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:40 AM   #169
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That right there is a cerebral mo-fo.



I agree...I think.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:02 AM   #170
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Heh.

The same things that attract also repel.

If you let a women dominate you "Be a Man!" if you don't "You're an asshole" Take you pick and be prepared for it to be a moving target.

I tell people straight out that I am completely incorrigible. I've had a couple (including one shrink I dated for like a year) try to change me. Doesn't work. I've got the "Its me or the bike" well I have two bikes and no her, "You should sell your guitars," Three guitars and no her.

I've also moved from be a man to your an asshole in a matter of seconds. One former companion thought she could dominate me, which culminated in something of a food fight (and assorted cutlery ) at a 4 star restaurant. Made a new rule that night, no more dating laywers
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:49 AM   #171
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Well I was about to post something sarcastic about "real men" who feel so insecure they have to reconfirm themselves continuously by talking tough, promoting an image of women that belongs to the 1950s, wielding guns and watch male primadonnas in tights running after a brown egg (or putting on said leggins themselves). I wouldn't have talked about anyone in particular.

But then came GSF1200S and summed it all up just perfectly. It is a post well worth reading.

If your wife feels uncomfortable about you doing something she perceives as dangerous, and that thing happens to be motorcycling, then maybe your personalities don't really match that well? Maybe you real men fucked up in the first place when choosing your partner? It is not always the woman, just saying. Usually you can tell beforehand. And just thinking "She will learn to live with it" - the equivalent of "I can change him" usually won't work in the long run.

And this:
Quote:
As said several times here, I think it is more a matter of a guy not wanting something bad enough, but wanting to come up with an explanation that shifts blame to someone else. Easiest to blame the partner in a case like this. Regardless. They rant being courageous enugh to own up to their own lack of decisiveness.

The other great excuse is "man I would really love to do (x), but I am just too busy and don't have time." That is bullshit too normally, because if thing x was something you really truly wanted to do, you would find time for it. But, you have other priorities that come first, and after doing those things you are most interested in you don't have time left for the extra thing. Which is totally fine, but it's something that should be owned up to. For example, I have a scuba license, but don't dive anymore. Not through lack of interest, but rather lack of sufficient interest to prioritize it over motorcycles, bicycles, and my other hobbies.

My wife and I don't do the "let" thing.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:06 AM   #172
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Here's why most men are emasculated.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:29 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Mat View Post
If your wife feels uncomfortable about you doing something she perceives as dangerous, and that thing happens to be motorcycling, then maybe your personalities don't really match that well? Maybe you real men fucked up in the first place when choosing your partner?
Additionally, you may have already used up that week's (or month's, or year's) compromise points by being a different sort of asshole.


No one can legally force someone else to do or not do anything in a marriage (at least, not anymore) - it takes paperwork, but you can always leave.

If these people really wanted to do whatever they'd sort it out. They don't really want to, though, so the gentle (or moderate) pressure from their spouse prevents them from buying a $18k paperweight. The OP (and others) can't really understand why others don't like what they like, or to the same degree that they like it.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:30 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSF1200S View Post
Evolved masculinity, in my opinion, is a man who is willing to communicate, entertain (always) and participate in compromise (when it is logical), demands respect for himself but also demands himself to treat others with respect, yet still attempts to better himself as a man- better the aspects of his personality he invests time into.

While all of these things are fine in moderation, at some point a man has to step up and direct his masculinity at the ills of a society. Some men certainly do this, and many who dont would if society gave them the chance. It is a cold and exploitative world out there under the surface of smiling models on billboards; this is part of what draws many of us here (in my opinion again)..
Now WTF is "Evolved Masculinity"? Here is a clue, misandry.

I am who I am. I like myself, my wife of 28 years likes me. I like her and she likes herself. What is so hard about that? She has room to grow and so do I.

Pardon me, while I scratch my balls.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:14 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by GSF1200S View Post
Ad hominem attack to dismiss argument. Ignore argument. Insert bottom line of why I am right.

Perhaps she is wrong, but I give her argument more credit than yours. This is simply on observation that she attacked noones character and merely stated her opinion while you attacked her character and inserted your opinion as the "bottom line".

Most of us have heard the generalization that women go after the jerks and ignore the nice guys, and there is a reason for this; many of the "nice" guys have an ephemeral personal identity, and do not possess the masculine characteristics necessary to stand up for themselves (in regards to women). The jerks, as terrible as it is and as wrong as they treat the women, stand up to their women and exhibit some form of power. Power is attractive to a female, even though that power can come in many forms (being able to slough off the negatives in life and look optimistically to the future, societal power, etc).

Evolved masculinity, in my opinion, is a man who is willing to communicate, entertain (always) and participate in compromise (when it is logical), demands respect for himself but also demands himself to treat others with respect, yet still attempts to better himself as a man- better the aspects of his personality he invests time into.

While I dont think it is by the collusion of some men in a dark room somewhere, I think over time masculinity has been redirected to useless avenues; more specifically, the proliferation of our capitalist global model of commerce has commercialized masculinity (as it has femininity). Im not condemning capitalism here so much as pointing out that an excessive amount of any one thing is not good (except motorcycles ); the founders of the United States for instance made it clear in correspondence with one another that the United States would not survive a morally bankrupt society (and in their case many of them favored religion as the moral backdrop for a strong country, though opinions differed and differ). Masculinity has been directed to roars in sport stadiums, leather chaps and the "social motorcycle" badboy, using immoral force to accrue financial wealth, and beers with buddies on poker night. While all of these things are fine in moderation, at some point a man has to step up and direct his masculinity at the ills of a society. Some men certainly do this, and many who dont would if society gave them the chance. It is a cold and exploitative world out there under the surface of smiling models on billboards; this is part of what draws many of us here (in my opinion again)..
whoa...how'd my dismissiveness (of her opinion) get construed as an attack on her character? i'm sure she's a nice person, i just thought she was a little bit wrong and a little bit right.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:04 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Shoganai View Post
1.
2. Yeah!
3. But it's damned frustrating that my best buddy won't "Man-Up" and tell his lazy, good-for-nothing, sleeps all morning, gambles online all evening wife who won't "allow" him to come on a boy's weekend and whom he has to "ask" if he can come for a beer, who lets the house go to hell and who doesn't lift a finger to find a job whilst he shovels the corporate shit as an under-paid cubicle-monkey, to shove it up her ass
4.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:07 PM   #177
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Now WTF is "Evolved Masculinity"? Here is a clue, misandry.
I do not hate men, but I do hate men who beat women, start wars, utilize force to get what they want, shut down the moment "feelings" come into play, etc. Masculinity itself is not the problem- its the manner in which society directs masculinity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coma View Post
I am who I am. I like myself, my wife of 28 years likes me. I like her and she likes herself. What is so hard about that? She has room to grow and so do I.

Pardon me, while I scratch my balls.
Sounds good. Nothing, thanks for asking I take no issue with this, and your confidence is probably why you have a wife of 28 years, and hers is probably why she has a husband of 28 years. I dont really think we disagree about anything actually, you?
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:11 PM   #178
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whoa...how'd my dismissiveness (of her opinion) get construed as an attack on her character? i'm sure she's a nice person, i just thought she was a little bit wrong and a little bit right.
Perhaps it was not your intent, but the term "Psychobabble" is fairly dismissive of her entire argument especially when the whole argument is quoted. Then, you inserted your "bottom line" to replace her "psychobabble". If its not what you meant, thats cool- but we can only do so much to infer what another person means when they say something- using potentially inflammatory and dismissive terms is a good way for someone to get the wrong idea.

Thats why my writing is pretty dry and boring- i figure if i can remove as much emotion as possible, I will draw less emotional ire from others. Still have to have emotion for things to have meaning though, and I get thats where things get hot in the Inmates forum.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:21 PM   #179
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I voted that shit down on YouTube.

I got tired of whiner spoken-word / poets on stages years ago... and fast. I watched the whole thing and realized the speaker would rather play the victim that others have to Man Up to support or save. Far too many of those in the USA already.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:39 PM   #180
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I would be curious to see how the Aussie men are in terms of being emasculated. I know the Brits are about as bad as the Americans are, generalizing of course. Many third world cultures take a more traditional approach where women are subservient to men completely, while westernized societies typically see women taking on more masculine attitudes while men take on more feminine attitudes.
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