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Old 10-23-2012, 08:38 AM   #196
Jim Moore
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Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
My take is that so many guys today (think Gen X and younger) have not experienced much beyond TV and the movies. The concept of what a "real man" is is distorted. We have a kind of caricature of what these real men are, and it is make up of little bits and pieces stuck together with no stuffing behind it. If boys aren't exposed to fully-formed men and don't know what it means to have depth of experience, they will grow up to be shallow and, well, kind of useless.

These emasculated men aren't just emasculated, IMO, but also missing chunks of personhood. They end up defining themselves by others. This is a sure ticket to misery.
I see the same thing. I blame it on the rise of the single mother and the lack of male authority figures in the lives of children.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:43 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by GSF1200S View Post
I do not hate men, but I do hate men who beat women, start wars, utilize force to get what they want, shut down the moment "feelings" come into play, etc. Masculinity itself is not the problem- its the manner in which society directs masculinity.
Amen.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:50 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Aussijussi View Post
I've always told my girlfriend's that motorcycles and skiing, go where i go, if it doesn't suit them, we'll stop right there. It has worked fine so far. You just have to put your foot down mate
I did this on my first date with my girlfriend. I told her that I rode a motorcycle (only form of transportation I have) which means things might be a bit inconvenient and there was no way my bike was going anywhere but with me as long as I can ride. She stuck around and rides with me now.
I think turning the wife into the bad guy is stupid and disrespectful not to mention a guy that uses that line sounds pathetic.

PS theres still hope for some of us young guys, Im only 21 but I haven't been feminized
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:38 AM   #199
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I'd love to respond to this thread, but the wife's calling.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:47 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Flyinace1 View Post
I think turning the wife into the bad guy is stupid and disrespectful not to mention a guy that uses that line sounds pathetic.

PS theres still hope for some of us young guys, Im only 21 but I haven't been feminized
I agree with there kiddo..
I have a younger cousin and he has his crap together.. Not every kid is a game playing,nonmotorcycle riding momas boy..
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:20 AM   #201
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Cool! Many people, of both genders, use those words as code for misandry. I won't buy into the code. Society, in general, is a following mentality, individuals are leaders. I would willing use force to get/keep liberty and freedom and to stop those who would prey on others. If that is what you means we are, indeed, in agreement.
I do agree that force is necessary to combat the force of tyrannical power. Further, if someone hits me, im hitting them back because I believe it is necessary to not submit to force, even if that belief requires me to use force. Obviously in a perfect world, "force" wouldnt be necessary, but we dont live in a perfect world; so, while I dont like force, it is unfortunately necessary at times to retain respect (standing up for one's self when subjected to force) or to safeguard one's liberty as you say. And since I LOATH those who prey upon the weak, I definitely follow you there. So yeah, we basically agree.

I also agree with you about veiled misandry. The ironic thing here is, man-hating began, again in my opinion, with extreme elements of the second wave of feminism, yet the feminists themselves promoted masculine ideals among women; this brand of feminism is nothing more than encouraging women to become men in terms of societal function rather than promoting the value and importance of femininity itself. Now, it is fine for women to appreciate masculinity and take on some of those attributes just as it is fine for a man to appreciate and take on some feminine attributes (a loving father for example). It is good that second-wave feminism promoted a woman to have equal opportunity in terms of employment and experience in life, but to dismiss the virtues of femininity destroys the woman completely.

One other thing to consider is how second-wave feminism created a competition between men and women, one in which most men do not like to participate in. Men are very competitive, but it is not there instinct to compete with a woman- it is their instinct to protect and give to a woman. So, when a woman attempts to power-grab with one of her tests, most men dont really see a need to fight it or compete with her in that way. They give way hoping to please her, and she becomes infuriated because he is failing to demonstrate the type of power and fortitude she desires. She begins to doubt his masculinity (subconsciously) and tests again- he submits not wanting to compete, and she becomes even more displeased. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat until finally shes fucking someone else. Its like a dog trying to understand a cat with a dog's perspective; the dog can only think in terms of dog, but that is not how a cat thinks. A man must be aware of this disconnect- he must be aware that submitting to please a woman will only further infuriate her when she is being irrational. It is important to note that simply ignoring what she says is ignorant and demonstrates a weak mind; she may very well know more about many things than you do, and surely you will have days of being the one who is wrong. Your ability to submit to reason is something she can respect, while your ability to dismiss irrationality is also something for her to respect. The trick is finding that line between reason and irrationality. Again, this is my perspective- if you dont agree, lets hear it!

It is imperative, again in my opinion, that a man recognize irrational grabs for power, and deal with it swiftly and respectfully. If she throws a temper tantrum, my response has always been along the lines of "you are getting emotional and attacking me while I am trying to avoid emotion and I am not attacking you; I feel you are wrong in doing this, and so im leaving. I need some time to consider whether or not we can work, because frankly Im not going to take you treating me like shit." The response, in my experience granted, has always been submissive- she attempts to apologize and starts to get upset at the thought of me leaving. It is imperative that the man ENSURES he does NOT use this as mental abuse or to win an argument by force- it is ONLY when things are going too far and she is starting to throw names where nothing will be accomplished. She must learn that you are one she must treat with respect in order to be with, and at the same time learn you are one she can trust to treat her with respect.

More opinion: a man must be proud of being a man. He must revel in the testosterone pulsing through his veins, revel in the way his body feels when he takes a shot of 150hp on two wheels, and revel in the bliss of sharing his manhood with a woman he loves. He has to have value in his life separate from the woman he is involved with, and he must use his faculties to better himself, protect those he cares about, and excel in what hes passionate about. A woman makes the choice as to what man exhibits this best, just as a man makes the choice as to what woman exhibits womanhood best.

GSF1200S screwed with this post 10-23-2012 at 11:28 AM
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:42 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by GSF1200S View Post
I do agree that force is necessary to combat the force of tyrannical power. Further, if someone hits me, im hitting them back because I believe it is necessary to not submit to force, even if that belief requires me to use force. Obviously in a perfect world, "force" wouldnt be necessary, but we dont live in a perfect world; so, while I dont like force, it is unfortunately necessary at times to retain respect (standing up for one's self when subjected to force) or to safeguard one's liberty as you say. And since I LOATH those who prey upon the weak, I definitely follow you there. So yeah, we basically agree.

I also agree with you about veiled misandry. The ironic thing here is, man-hating began, again in my opinion, with extreme elements of the second wave of feminism, yet the feminists themselves promoted masculine ideals among women; this brand of feminism is nothing more than encouraging women to become men in terms of societal function rather than promoting the value and importance of femininity itself. Now, it is fine for women to appreciate masculinity and take on some of those attributes just as it is fine for a man to appreciate and take on some feminine attributes (a loving father for example). It is good that second-wave feminism promoted a woman to have equal opportunity in terms of employment and experience in life, but to dismiss the virtues of femininity destroys the woman completely.

One other thing to consider is how second-wave feminism created a competition between men and women, one in which most men do not like to participate in. Men are very competitive, but it is not there instinct to compete with a woman- it is their instinct to protect and give to a woman. So, when a woman attempts to power-grab with one of her tests, most men dont really see a need to fight it or compete with her in that way. They give way hoping to please her, and she becomes infuriated because he is failing to demonstrate the type of power and fortitude she desires. She begins to doubt his masculinity (subconsciously) and tests again- he submits not wanting to compete, and she becomes even more displeased. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat until finally shes fucking someone else. Its like a dog trying to understand a cat with a dog's perspective; the dog can only think in terms of dog, but that is not how a cat thinks. A man must be aware of this disconnect- he must be aware that submitting to please a woman will only further infuriate her when she is being irrational. It is important to note that simply ignoring what she says is ignorant and demonstrates a weak mind; she may very well know more about many things than you do, and surely you will have days of being the one who is wrong. Your ability to submit to reason is something she can respect, while your ability to dismiss irrationality is also something for her to respect. The trick is finding that line between reason and irrationality. Again, this is my perspective- if you dont agree, lets hear it!

It is imperative, again in my opinion, that a man recognize irrational grabs for power, and deal with it swiftly and respectfully. If she throws a temper tantrum, my response has always been along the lines of "you are getting emotional and attacking me while I am trying to avoid emotion and I am not attacking you; I feel you are wrong in doing this, and so im leaving. I need some time to consider whether or not we can work, because frankly Im not going to take you treating me like shit." The response, in my experience granted, has always been submissive- she attempts to apologize and starts to get upset at the thought of me leaving. It is imperative that the man ENSURES he does NOT use this as mental abuse or to win an argument by force- it is ONLY when things are going too far and she is starting to throw names where nothing will be accomplished. She must learn that you are one she must treat with respect in order to be with, and at the same time learn you are one she can trust to treat her with respect.

More opinion: a man must be proud of being a man. He must revel in the testosterone pulsing through his veins, revel in the way his body feels when he takes a shot of 150hp on two wheels, and revel in the bliss of sharing his manhood with a woman he loves. He has to have value in his life separate from the woman he is involved with, and he must use his faculties to better himself, protect those he cares about, and excel in what hes passionate about. A woman makes the choice as to what man exhibits this best, just as a man makes the choice as to what woman exhibits womanhood best.

Hmmm, masters or doctoral degree in Women's Studies with a minor in Women's Psycology possibly? This is not your garden variety housewife writing here!

Frankly, it is a bit too accademic for this crowd IMHO!

Jim
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:47 AM   #203
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Do a lot of you guys actually put that much thought into things..??....
Maybe I am just a simple man.?. I don't even understand a big part of what you wrote..or maybe I just don't want to...
You mention Society ..do you really do things or say things because you think society wants you to..??..
Actually, I encourage that others do NOT just do things because society wants you to. Society is a corporately commercialized entity that is driven primarily by anything that serves profit. I dont really think a simple man exists- we all see things a certain way, and in situations like this we try to communicate our ideas to each other to see if picking up on others ideas may benefit us. If you dont understand a part of what I wrote, it is probably because Im failing to be clear about what im saying. It could also be because we see things in an entirely different way.

I am of the belief that thought is the answer; nearly all the stuff we enjoy (houses, air conditioning, cell phones, motorcycles, etc) came from someone thinking about laws of nature and figuring out how to manipulate these laws to give humans an advantage over the natural world. Energy is neither created nor destroyed- it merely changes state; we are MASTERS at changing the state of energy (mass; steel, petroleum, etc) to benefit us. Science is the study of energy, while engineering is the arm of science which utilizes what science knows to create solutions that better position us to face tomorrow.

I think in many ways, the state and science has replaced the man in terms of societal function. It used to be that a woman relied on men to protect them and provide for them. Now however, a woman doesnt need a man, at least physically. Beyond reproduction itself, the state can give her welfare or can garnish his pay for alimony and child support. A woman doesnt need a man to protect her from another man- all she needs is a gun (a product of science). Is it any wonder men are much less valued today? I believe men still have a function, but it becomes increasingly more complicated to define.
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:52 AM   #204
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Hmmm, masters or doctoral degree in Women's Studies with a minor in Women's Psycology possibly? This is not your garden variety housewife writing here!

Frankly, it is a bit too accademic for this crowd IMHO!

Jim
Nah, just some thoughts- im no masters or doctoral student. I think I would die if I studied Women's Studies- while I cannot say since I have not actually studied it, it seems to me to be nothing but a study in misandry.

Im sorry if it comes across as academic- im just another dude with an opinion. I try to stick to technical boring language so that I am clear- this is the kind of topic that will draw a lot of emotion into itself.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:47 PM   #205
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Nah, just some thoughts- im no masters or doctoral student. I think I would die if I studied Women's Studies- while I cannot say since I have not actually studied it, it seems to me to be nothing but a study in misandry.

Im sorry if it comes across as academic- im just another dude with an opinion. I try to stick to technical boring language so that I am clear- this is the kind of topic that will draw a lot of emotion into itself.
To be honest, you do not sound like a "dude" at all!

Jim
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:57 PM   #206
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I was in some slaes training and the tainer told us

For men, listen to the words that are coming out of their mouth.

For women, try to find the message hidden the words they are saying.

It has gone a long way for me when communicating with women.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:06 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by GSF1200S View Post
I think in many ways, the state and science has replaced the man in terms of societal function. It used to be that a woman relied on men to protect them and provide for them. Now however, a woman doesnt need a man, at least physically. Beyond reproduction itself, the state can give her welfare or can garnish his pay for alimony and child support. A woman doesnt need a man to protect her from another man- all she needs is a gun (a product of science). Is it any wonder men are much less valued today? I believe men still have a function, but it becomes increasingly more complicated to define.
I won't use the bandwidth to quote the others as I agree.

This point I want to add to. Problem is women as latter-day feminists don't want equality. Else they would demand to be included in the draft registration. They have maneuvered the system to grant them special rights, minority rights men don 't have. They are quite willing to send fathers/brothers/sons to die for their "rights". The end result is that now they have rights without responsibility. Hence they can vote for any willy nilly thought that passes their way as they know a man will enforce it for them. This why socialism, as more government, is so appealing to them.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:48 PM   #208
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I won't use the bandwidth to quote the others as I agree.

This point I want to add to. Problem is women as latter-day feminists don't want equality. Else they would demand to be included in the draft registration. They have maneuvered the system to grant them special rights, minority rights men don 't have. They are quite willing to send fathers/brothers/sons to die for their "rights". The end result is that now they have rights without responsibility. Hence they can vote for any willy nilly thought that passes their way as they know a man will enforce it for them. This why socialism, as more government, is so appealing to them.
I agree with this 100%. Another example may be to expect chivalry (pay for my meal and hold my door for me) but expect equal pay. I think they should get equal pay for equal work, but to also require my wallet feeding them to be content with me is ridiculous. Again, just IMO.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:52 PM   #209
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To be honest, you do not sound like a "dude" at all!

Jim
In light of some heated things being thrown around in this thread, I have to wonder whether this is an insult.

If that is so, what makes me not sound like a dude? I hold masculinity in a much higher regard it seems than many emasculated men of today, and I don't think my language sounds effeminate (klay, help me out with spelling here, haha), so I guess I don't understand?
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:15 PM   #210
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I told my wife she can have the car, if I can get me a Honda. Big argument. Came home with the Honda a week later, even bigger argument. and when I brought it in the kitchen to tear the suspension down, I thought a vein was gonna burst in her forehead. "We have a baby on the way and you get a motorcycle?! You selfish fuck, you're gonna kill yourself" Chill out mama!! I ride in the dirt.

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