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Old 12-05-2012, 06:48 PM   #1051
Colebatch OP
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Originally Posted by FinnDuro View Post
RR Crew, any of you wished you hadn't gotten almost all black riding gear... ? Would think light greys and such might've been much cooler?
Cooler? yes ...
Much cooler? I dont think so.

We werent that hot riding along - when the heat is being transfered from the clothes to the air just as quick regardless of colour of clothes. Its staying still in the direct sun where the colour would be some disadvantage. I mentioned to the guys on several occasions to try not to stop in the sun. Find a patch of shade if we are going to be stationary. If you do that then there is no temperature difference from colour of clothing.

If you are in a plastic riding suit of any colour in 35 degrees, you will feel hot when standing still. I remember riding in Morocco with a friend a year ago in 43 degrees (110F) me in black and him in all white. I said to him he must be cooler in the white. He looked at me and said that if I didnt think he was fu@king hot too, then I was kidding myself. Hot is hot, regardless of the colour.

I looked into it a bit more when I got back from Morocco and this is my take on it ... I read about an experiment at a car dealer once where they had a bunch of same model cars on a baking hot day parked in the lot in different colours and checked the surface paint temp and internal air temp in the cars. While the surface paint temp of the black sections in the sun was up to 25C hotter than the white, the air temp difference on the other side of the painted surface was just 2 degrees different. I imagine it like that with clothing ... but with clothing you will get much smaller differences. Apparently the outer surface sections of black woven fabric (in bright sunshine) can be up to 6 degrees C hotter than white ... but separating the outer surface of the fabric from your skin are a lot more layers of fabric and an air gap. Using the same dilution as the car scenario, you are only going to get a 0.5 C difference in temp on the inside of the jacket. Less if there is any air flow.

Apparently there is a difference, but its much less than on hard or metallic surfaces, and much less than people imagine. There can be a significant psychological factor. Like myself in Morocco, I was feeling damn hot and tried to blame it on the black riding gear. I was looking for an excuse. The reality was the guy in all white was just as hot. It was 43C - thats why I was hot.

Bear in mind Bedouins in the Sinai often wear black robes, Tuareg in the Sahara wear dark blue. That wouldnt be possible if the differences were critical. Airflow is key.

If colour made a significant difference, Finns and Swedes would historically have dominated the Sahara - their very pale skin and platinum blonde hair would give them an evolutionary advantage in reflecting the direct heat radiated from the sun, but in fact the people that dominate the hot climates and deserts of the world typically have black hair. So again you have to assume the difference can not be significant or that would not be possible.

- - -

Another thing of interest popped up as I was writing this reply and mentioning bedouins ....

Amiram Shkolnik, C. Richard Taylor*, Virginia Finch* & Arieh Borut
Department of Zoology, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv, Israel
*Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138

Survival in hot deserts has always posed a problem for man; ... It seems likely that the present inhabitants of the Sinai, the Bedouins, would have optimised their solutions for desert survival during their long tenure in this desert Yet, one may have doubts on first encountering Bedouins wearing black robes and herding black goats. We have therefore investigated whether black robes help the Bedouins to minimise solar heat loads in a hot desert. This seemed possible because experiments have shown that white hair on cattle, and white feathers on pigeons permit greater penetration of short-wave radiation to the skin than black. In fact, more heat flowed inward through white pigeon plumage than through black when both were exposed to simulated solar radiation at wind speeds greater than 3 m/s. We report here that the amount of heat gained by a Bedouin exposed to the hot desert is the same whether he wears a black or a white robe. The additional heat absorbed by the black robe was lost before it reached the skin.
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Colebatch screwed with this post 12-07-2012 at 12:33 AM
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:59 PM   #1052
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I may have missed it somewhere, but are you guys riding with paper maps in addition to the Montanas?
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:35 PM   #1053
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BLACK IS FASTER..So ride in BLACK!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colebatch View Post
Cooler? yes ...
Much cooler? I dont think so.

We werent that hot riding along - when the heat is being transfered from the clothes to the air just as quick regardless of colour of clothes. Its staying still in the direct sun where the colour would be some disadvantage. I mentioned to the guys on several occasions to try not to stop in the sun. Find a patch of shade if we are going to be stationary. If you do that then there is no temperature difference from colour of clothing.

If you are in a plastic riding suit of any colour in 35 degrees, you will feel hot when standing still. I remember riding in Morocco with a friend a year ago in 43 degrees (110F) me in black and him in all white. I said to him he must be cooler in the white. He looked at me and said that if I didnt think he was fu@king hot too, then I was kidding myself. Hot is hot, regardless of the colour.

I looked into it a bit more when I got back from Morocco and this is my take on it ... I read about an experiment at a car dealer once where they had a bunch of same model cars on a baking hot day parked in the lot in different colours and checked the surface paint temp and internal air temp in the cars. While the surface paint temp of the black sections in the sun was up to 25C hotter than the white, the air temp difference on the other side of the painted surface was just 2 degrees different. I imagine it like that with clothing ... but with clothing you will get much smaller differences. Apparently the outer surface sections of black woven fabric (in bright sunshine) can be up to 6 degrees C hotter than white ... but separating the outer surface of the fabric from your skin are a lot more layers of fabric and an air gap. Using the same dilution as the car scenario, you are only going to get a 0.5 C difference in temp on the inside of the jacket. Less if there is any air flow.

Apparently there is a difference, but its much less than on hard or metallic surfaces, and much less than people imagine. Like myself in Morocco, I was feeling damn hot and tried to blame it on the black riding gear. I was looking for an excuse. The reality was the guy in all white was just as hot. It was 43C - thats why I was hot.

Bear in mind Bedouins in the Sinai often wear black robes, Tuareg in the Sahara wear dark blue. That wouldnt be possible if the differences were critical. Airflow is key.

- - -

Another thing of interest popped up as I was writing this reply and mentioning bedouins ....

Amiram Shkolnik, C. Richard Taylor*, Virginia Finch* & Arieh Borut
Department of Zoology, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv, Israel
*Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138

Survival in hot deserts has always posed a problem for man; Moses had to solve it in order to lead the children of Israel through the wilderness of the Sinai—a formidable hot desert. It seems likely that the present inhabitants of the Sinai, the Bedouins, would have optimised their solutions for desert survival during their long tenure in this desert Yet, one may have doubts on first encountering Bedouins wearing black robes and herding black goats. We have therefore investigated whether black robes help the Bedouins to minimise solar heat loads in a hot desert. This seemed possible because experiments have shown that white hair on cattle, and white feathers on pigeons permit greater penetration of short-wave radiation to the skin than black. In fact, more heat flowed inward through white pigeon plumage than through black when both were exposed to simulated solar radiation at wind speeds greater than 3 m/s. We report here that the amount of heat gained by a Bedouin exposed to the hot desert is the same whether he wears a black or a white robe. The additional heat absorbed by the black robe was lost before it reached the skin.
The SR-71 Blackbird: Why is the aircraft painted black? It actually flies 75 degrees Fahrenheit cooler than unpainted. Plus it's much fast because it's dressed in black.

Also there a reason engines are painted Black...it has better heat rejection and thus makes the cooling system smaller and lighter too.

TO GO FAST IN THE HEAT: YOU MUST WEAR BLACK AND RIDE A BLACK BIKE!

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Old 12-05-2012, 09:07 PM   #1054
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Originally Posted by far View Post
And for the bike how about the Old but reliable Africa Twin or the new Tenere 660, I will love if honda make the AT again the honda bikes have been the most reliable bike I ever have,
I had a Honda V-Twin once and I totally agree the engine is the most reliable thing I ever had on a motorcycle.

But the bike is too heavy overall, and definitely too top heavy. No ground clearance. The brakes are poor and the suspension is terrible. You can fix the suspension and the ground clearance. Fixing the brakes is harder. Fixing the weight problem is pretty much impossible.

Same with the Tenere 660. As far as I know, its the heaviest single cylinder bike on the market, possibly heaviest single ever made. Africa Twin and Tenere 660 are good reliable bikes that will take you anywhere - if you like riding at moderate speeds.

They are just going to be much more difficult to ride as fast as we were generally going.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:05 PM   #1055
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colebatch View Post
Cooler? yes ...
Much cooler? I dont think so.

We werent that hot riding along - when the heat is being transfered from the clothes to the air just as quick regardless of colour of clothes. Its staying still in the direct sun where the colour would be some disadvantage. I mentioned to the guys on several occasions to try not to stop in the sun. Find a patch of shade if we are going to be stationary. If you do that then there is no temperature difference from colour of clothing.

If you are in a plastic riding suit of any colour in 35 degrees, you will feel hot when standing still. I remember riding in Morocco with a friend a year ago in 43 degrees (110F) me in black and him in all white. I said to him he must be cooler in the white. He looked at me and said that if I didnt think he was fu@king hot too, then I was kidding myself. Hot is hot, regardless of the colour.

I looked into it a bit more when I got back from Morocco and this is my take on it ... I read about an experiment at a car dealer once where they had a bunch of same model cars on a baking hot day parked in the lot in different colours and checked the surface paint temp and internal air temp in the cars. While the surface paint temp of the black sections in the sun was up to 25C hotter than the white, the air temp difference on the other side of the painted surface was just 2 degrees different. I imagine it like that with clothing ... but with clothing you will get much smaller differences. Apparently the outer surface sections of black woven fabric (in bright sunshine) can be up to 6 degrees C hotter than white ... but separating the outer surface of the fabric from your skin are a lot more layers of fabric and an air gap. Using the same dilution as the car scenario, you are only going to get a 0.5 C difference in temp on the inside of the jacket. Less if there is any air flow.

Apparently there is a difference, but its much less than on hard or metallic surfaces, and much less than people imagine. There can be a significant psychological factor. Like myself in Morocco, I was feeling damn hot and tried to blame it on the black riding gear. I was looking for an excuse. The reality was the guy in all white was just as hot. It was 43C - thats why I was hot.

Bear in mind Bedouins in the Sinai often wear black robes, Tuareg in the Sahara wear dark blue. That wouldnt be possible if the differences were critical. Airflow is key.

If colour made a significant difference, Finns and Swedes would historically have dominated the Sahara - their very pale skin and platinum blonde hair would give them an evolutionary advantage in reflecting the direct heat radiated from the sun, but in fact the people that dominate the hot climates and deserts of the world typically have black hair. So again you have to assume the difference can not be significant or that would not be possible.

- - -

[/I]
Walter did you ever consider wearing an body armour instead of a jacket , and carry with you the jacket for the cold/rainy days but with protection pads removed so the jacket can be weared over the armour ?

I sow that your russian buddy in Morocco was wearing an armour under the jacket, but i didn't understand why is he wearing the jacket in the first place in that heat.


Looking forward to see the rest of your adventure.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:13 PM   #1056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colebatch View Post
I had a Honda V-Twin once and I totally agree the engine is the most reliable thing I ever had on a motorcycle.

But the bike is too heavy overall, and definitely too top heavy. No ground clearance. The brakes are poor and the suspension is terrible. You can fix the suspension and the ground clearance. Fixing the brakes is harder. Fixing the weight problem is pretty much impossible.
maybe something like this http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/7/f/7f0ab7a7.jpg could save some weight and improve the overall off road but I thing the carburetor and twins could lead to a hi fuel consumption.

But I think you have best setup in your bike and is really pretty that dakar front and that rotax engine has the best fuel consumption btw.

You have a RR here from yours trips to South America in the red GS650? Or were to read, and the The Tokyo to London Project is my next read
Looking forward for the new updates
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:30 PM   #1057
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Originally Posted by far View Post
But I think you have best setup in your bike and is really pretty that dakar front and that rotax engine has the best fuel consumption btw.
I think way Walter has his bike setup rocks. I have a strong KTM basis, but the sheer reliability of the Rotax engine along with it fuel consumption makes it an ideal adventure bike. If I was doing a solo adventure I would look at duplicating this for myself.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:42 PM   #1058
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Day 41 Continued

We left the last village and headed off into the unknown.



From here on there was nothing on the map. Nothing on any map. It was going to be about 250 km (160 miles) of Kazakh nothingness. We were headed towards one of the emptiest parts of Kazakhstan, abandoned and overgrown as it was the main soviet nuclear testing site prior to 1991.



We were filled with anticipation.



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Old 12-05-2012, 11:48 PM   #1059
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Terry's air con

Terry cooling himself down, as only he knows how ...

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Old 12-05-2012, 11:52 PM   #1060
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Day 41 - the middle of nowhere

While it was incredibly remote, it was also incredibly beautiful in its own way .... way out here. For the first time in the trip so far, we were aware that we were really in the middle of nowhere here. No farms. No people, and the double track we were riding on was not frequently travelled at all. Pretty faint in most parts.





We came upon a small lake ...



And Prutser decided to have some fun ... splash around in the shallows of the lake to try find a way to cool Rod's bike, which was playing up again ......
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:56 PM   #1061
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Boxer stuck

Only it didnt work out quite the way he had in mind ...



So some luggage came off ...



Terry (in the background) and I popped down to see what was going on:



And the traditional deep extraction method began ...

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Old 12-06-2012, 01:23 AM   #1062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colebatch View Post
I had a Honda V-Twin once and I totally agree the engine is the most reliable thing I ever had on a motorcycle.

But the bike is too heavy overall, and definitely too top heavy. No ground clearance. The brakes are poor and the suspension is terrible. You can fix the suspension and the ground clearance. Fixing the brakes is harder. Fixing the weight problem is pretty much impossible.

Same with the Tenere 660. As far as I know, its the heaviest single cylinder bike on the market, possibly heaviest single ever made. Africa Twin and Tenere 660 are good reliable bikes that will take you anywhere - if you like riding at moderate speeds.

They are just going to be much more difficult to ride as fast as we were generally going.
I've only ridden with one guy that has the skill to ride a big "dualsport" like a AT or 950 Adv through serious terrain, and he's doing the Dakar this year. The rest of we mortals just get exhausted (and scared) wrestling that much mass through sand, mud and rocks-and picking the damn' things up-hence the lightweight single pot bikes and disciplined packing.

But if you're looking for a bike that's slow, heavy, with shit susension, comedy brakes and unreliable too (why not go the whole hog?) do your brains in and try a KLR. It's the bike that does everything...badly!
Prepare for a storm of protest from KLR-ers. I'll apologise now. Sorry guys...only winding you up.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:38 AM   #1063
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I reccomment the awesome IZH Planeta 5
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:00 AM   #1064
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My intentions.......

My intentions with the lake were to find a place to cooldown the KTM after it stopped again in the heat of the day.
When I drove towards it to check it out I noticed my bike was sinking fast.
When I turned round it was to late............. lake !!!
Luckily this was the only time I needed the tow rope my self.....
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:51 AM   #1065
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My intentions with the lake were to find a place to cooldown the KTM after it stopped again in the heat of the day.
When I drove towards it to check it out I noticed my bike was sinking fast.
When I turned round it was to late............. lake !!!
Luckily this was the only time I needed the tow rope my self.....
Wish I could say the same.
We thought the lake would be a good place to immerse and cool the bike and maybe that would allow us to move on.
P went off the recce the lake out whilst I was pushing the bike over (62 horses and £6000+ but a 57 yo guy ends up pushing... great) but he sank up to the hilt. The mud was of the delightful sticky and stinky variety and I thought the airhead would be in there for hours. Some serious application of britches-arse power got it out as seen.

Could have been worse I supoose-if it's been the non-functioing KTM we'd have had to carry the thing out or wait 'til it would start.The bike was now stopping every few miles and I was despairing of sorting it at all. Occasionally it'd run for half an hour but Terry towed that thing mile afer mile and I experienced with T's help my first ever water crossing at the end of a tow rope. Fun...but on balance I'd've declined the experience given the choice.
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