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Old 10-22-2012, 10:56 PM   #1
fullmetalscooter OP
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Japen scooter becoming like bristish motorcycle before they went down for the count.

It's almost Japen scooter becoming like bristish motorcycle before they went down for the count. By this I mean Bristain once made great scooters and bike till japan come along started producing small cheap bike that worked. Flooding the market chipping away at the bristish motorcycle industry. At the time bristish motoryclce / scooter makers wore doing what is happing now. Producing fast bike etc but limbeted production and imports to usa /canada. Japan now doing the the same and china is doing what japan did producing cheap bikes, clone scooters etc. China is not all that good but It makes your wonder if japan Scooters and bike might just end up like the famous british makers of bikes did. Out of business just because someone under priced them for 15 years or so. Not saying its gong to happen but you wonder what the future holds when you look at the past kind of repeating it's self with Japen. That's my deep thought or bullshit thought of the day.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:24 PM   #2
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Japen?....



Or is this just another case of boo many teers?.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:32 PM   #3
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no match

british scooters are no match to japan scoots....
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:19 AM   #4
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Motorcycles and scooters from Japan were quite oil-tight and lack any participation from Lucas: Prince of Darkness! That's mainly where the products from Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Bridgestone, Lilac, & Kawasaki leapfrogged British-built motorcycles.



Japan also pioneered electric-starting, separate oil for Two-Strokes, and near-universal fitting of Flashing Turn Indicators, on motorcycles, stepthroughs, & motorscooters.



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. . . able to travel a quarter mile from a standing start in 12.0 seconds. In its day, the motorcycle became the undisputed "king of the streets" . . . . More than any other model, it created Kawasaki's reputation for building "scarily fast, good-looking, no holds barred motorcycles" and led to a further decline of in the market place of the British motorcycle industry.

Honda's C72 Dream - Electric Starting, Flashing Turn Indicators, and no oil leaks from the crankcase.
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In use the machine proved to be exceptionally reliable and civilised, riders noting with some surprise that it neither leaked or burnt oil and was easily capable of mile a minute cruising once the pilot had adapted his riding style to suit the "revvy" nature of the engine.
Leaving aside lower unit pricing; what has China innovated (apart from poorly-performing integrated mp3 ports)?
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:54 AM   #5
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I have to agree with Vortexau.
I bought my first Japanese motorcycle (Suzuki X6 Hustler) in 1968 to replace my 650 BSA and could not believe the improvements in reliability. That's what sold me on Japanese bikes and not the price.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:20 AM   #6
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Laugh

I don't see China replacing Japanese scooters/motorcycles any time soon. As has been mentioned, there is NO innovation only imitation. And poorly done cloning at that.

Japan fixed electrical gremlins, oil leaks and general reliability at a reasonable price. And as to innovation, can anyone remember the 1969 CB750? Honda Cub models, Kawasaki H series followed by the incredible Z series, Suzuki even pioneered a decent rotary engine motorcycle, unfortunately the timing was off and it was not a success. How about Yamaha DT250?

At this point China can claim nothing like the above; but given time who knows?
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:58 AM   #7
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I don't think there is any chance of Mainland Chinese made scooters ever replacing Japanese or any other brand scooters. As was said, all the Chinese do is build cheap copies that fall apart. Their quality will not likely improve mostly due to political reasons. The Chinese have no motivation to build anything better. I do not see Mainland China as a force to be reckoned with in the scooter or motorcycle market in the forseeable future. They do sell a lot of junk, because it is cheap, and because it falls apart right away.

However, Taiwan made scooters are a whole nother story. They build quality scooters, and for a lot less than the Japanese. Also, most of their dealers do not play games and try to rip off customers with all sorts of bogus fees like the Japanese dealers do. I can buy a new Kymco for MSRP plus sales tax, title, and registration. No bogus freight, setup, and doc fees, which add several hundred to the price. And the MSRP is a lot lower to begin with. The only issue is resale value is a bit lower, but I but a bike to ride, not to sell.

And another thing, Japanese scooters are actually disappearing already. Both my Zuma 125 and Vino 125 are Taiwanese scooters. They may have a Japanese name on them, but that's all. They say :made in Taiwan on them, and have a Taiwan VIN. The era of scooters actually made in Japan appears to be about over.

And it is not just scooters. I have owned a Kawasaki KLR650 and an Eliminator 125, both made in Thailand. The new BMW scooters are mostly Taiwanese. Even new Triumphs, definitely British bikes, at least namewise, are also being built in Taiwan. So are Piaggio scooters and parts.

I would have to say that Taiwan is the biggest manufacturer of scooters in the world. Not only their own quality brands, but they are building almost everybody else's scooters as well, and several motorcycles.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:46 AM   #8
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In every thread I've read about mainland Chinese scooters, they've been a disaster. It's one thing to buy a cheap, poor quality tool, it hopefully won't hurt or kill like a bad 2 wheeled vehicle can.

At this point, price has not trumped reliability, so they've got a long way to go. As mentioned above, they have also not been very innovative, so I don't think the Japanese motorcycle/scooter industry is in any danger.

The poor reputation of Chinese scooters overall is probably hurting Taiwanese Chinese scooter sales, even though their quality is similar to Japanese.

There is also no viable dealer/parts network, another thing required for long term marketing in this country. Aside from mediocre quality, I think that's what also hurt French and Italian car sales, and why you no longer see them here. These reputations last a long time, as seen in the poor sales of the new Fiat 500.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:11 PM   #9
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I actually looked at a new Fiat 500 a couple of years ago, and considered buying one. They were selling fairly well back then, and I saw several on the road. But Fiat pulled a scam. The new ones now are almost $3000 more than the base models were a couple of years ago. I scratched it off my list. The Hyundai Accent has it beat big time. More car for less money, and a way better warranty. And the Hyundai has proven to be reliable over the past 2 decades. But while Hyundai has done well, Kia and the former Daewoo Motors have not. Neither has Hyosung.

There did used to be a time when "made in Taiwan" meant junk, but just like "made in Japan" that has changed, at least for people who know something about what they are buying. But Taiwan has a whole different type of government, allowing free enterprise to flourish, unlike Mainland China.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:34 PM   #10
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I had a couple chinese bikes. Biggest piece of shits I've ever had. And one was new and other had 15 hours on it.

Red chinese bike I forget the company.
The rear brake fell off and was hanging by the hydraulic line , the sprockets would wear out surprisingly quick, it was LOUD, and we could never jet the fucker correctly. the rim spokes would come loose even though you just tightened them. rear shock blew, front shocks leaked. ect ect ect. The engine were excellent for the time we had it. All in ownership of 3 months of weekend rides.

Lifan pit bike
Just maintain liked any other bike. engine malfunction, sold it before I even gave a shit to open it up. went "clunk" and the wheel locked up. and I was just cruising.

Spend $1500 on a used bike from the 80's instead of a new Chinese bike, you'll be happier.
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:59 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
But Taiwan has a whole different type of government, allowing free enterprise to flourish, unlike Mainland China.

Absolutely. God bless freedom. Taiwan is such a wonderful country--as Westernized as Hong Kong, Japan, and South Korea.

Yeah, the Chinese will catch up one day. I do think it's inevitable, but right now I'm just not certain exactly how--state capitalism is still communism, just with way more money.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:12 PM   #12
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China sells far more scooters and motorcycles at home and abroad than all other countries combined, we just don't see that many here in the US YET. A large percentage of Chinese bikes sold here are made to order to be the lowest possible price, forget quality, they just need to look nice. Not all Chinese bikes are the same, they can and do make good quality bikes. Most people would be surprised to learn that many Japanese and European name bikes are actually made in China.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:21 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by hugemoth View Post
China sells far more scooters and motorcycles at home and abroad than all other countries combined, we just don't see that many here in the US YET. A large percentage of Chinese bikes sold here are made to order to be the lowest possible price, forget quality, they just need to look nice. Not all Chinese bikes are the same, they can and do make good quality bikes. Most people would be surprised to learn that many Japanese and European name bikes are actually made in China.
But in joint ventures with the Japanese and European companies who keep a close eye on quality.

Most Chinese who don't make that much money ride the cheap China scooters and keep them running as best they can.

A post a year or so ago by someone who lives and works in China..when some one said the Chinese didn't ride the cheap China produced scooters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcn
Oh that makes sense. It would be far less wear, but still its bad for the engine. But I doubt that the chinese even ride their own lowest quality bikes!


"Um, You're way wrong on that one sport. You have to remember the average person in China makes about $600.00 a year. These are all they can aford. They ride them till they are scap and patch them back together and do it again. The parts are cheap and they are cheap to maintain.

Heck I had 15000km on my last one and it never missed a beat. But I was a dumbass and ledt it unlock for 5 min while I ran into the house and it was gone when I got back down stairs"
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:11 PM   #14
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I've been in the Zongshen factory in Chongqing. I'd put their quality equal to or above anything else being produced anywhere in the world. Zongshen makes Piaggio and Genuine scooters for those companies. They make parts for a rather well-known American manufacturer based in Milwaukee.

I think the comments above are spot on. I think the Chinese are going to eclipse all of the other scooter manufacturers.

My $0.02...
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:05 PM   #15
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All the Chinese need to turn their poor quality around is a shitload of lawyers. Start class action suits (there are billions in that country!) against the scooter manufacturers for shoddy quality. Find a Chinese 'Nader'! Have someone write a book along the lines of 'Unsafe at any speed' concerning some of the worst offenders.

The Chinese are quite capable of producing quality goods. I buy audio equipment from a company that makes everything they sell (currently anyway) in China. And it is great stuff. Check em out at Emotiva.com if you are looking for home audio stuff. I have no affiliation with them other than being a satisfied customer.
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