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Old 10-23-2012, 09:33 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by knucklehead90 View Post
All the Chinese need to turn their poor quality around is a shitload of lawyers. Start class action suits (there are billions in that country!) against the scooter manufacturers for shoddy quality. Find a Chinese 'Nader'! Have someone write a book along the lines of 'Unsafe at any speed' concerning some of the worst offenders.

The Chinese are quite capable of producing quality goods. I buy audio equipment from a company that makes everything they sell (currently anyway) in China. And it is great stuff. Check em out at Emotiva.com if you are looking for home audio stuff. I have no affiliation with them other than being a satisfied customer.
As I tried to say when it happen over the next 15 years Japen may be forced into the same place British bike makers were. Yes right now china is somewhat garbage but flash back to 1950 and made in Japen meant cheap etc. Like china is thought of today. Bristh bike makers tried and tried but didn't have the cash to complete with japan. If you don't have the cash to make new models in the long run you may go down. China out produces Japan . japan motorcycle makers sold at cost or a little below it in the USA / Canada to getting the market for there bikes started way back when. China companies are in an even better spot then Japan was due to the Goverment owning allot of companies. They can under cut and do the say thing. I m not saying that it's going to happen but with motorcycling here being more of a hobby then daily transport you never know. I really don't dought it but Japan motorcycle makers are kind of like Mircosoft . All it take is a 3 or 4 Apple like motorcycle companies in china deciding they want the market share. Producing motorcycle / scooters that are on par at under par pricing and the ship might hit a reef. You never know what going to Happen .
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:31 PM   #17
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The Japanese, Honda especially, are pricing themselves out of the market, at least in the U.S. They started building stuff in Taiwan (CRF250L, PCX150, CBR250) and got the prices down some on those models. I don't think it will be long until all Hondas, and possibly all Japanese brand bikes are made in Taiwan or Thailand. They are making use of the cheap labor. But the Taiwanese brands are still undercutting them on price, especially when you consider the hundreds of bogus fees dealers charge. Japanese dealers need to cut out that practice. People are paying more attention to that sort of thing in todays economy. I got my new Zuma 125 with no freight and setup fees, and a $75 doc fee (it's usually $300) because I refused to pay it, And the dealer simply could not afford to turn down the sale. More people need to do that.

I am a regular visitor to powersportsnetwork.com, to read the reviews. A few years ago there were LOTS of reviews. Now there are very few. I'm assuming there is also a corresponding reduction in sales. The Japanese manufacturers need to reinvent themselves, and get with the times. Get back to basics, and offer some reasonably priced models without all the gadgetry. That is where they started, and it worked. Worked fine for VW too, back in the day. Now they sell the same overpriced junk that everyone else does. Market an early '70s CB750 or VW bug and I'll buy them.
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:15 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by fullmetalscooter View Post
As I tried to say when it happen over the next 15 years Japen may be forced into the same place British bike makers were. Yes right now china is somewhat garbage but flash back to 1950 and made in Japen meant cheap etc. Like china is thought of today. Bristh bike makers tried and tried but didn't have the cash to complete with japan. If you don't have the cash to make new models in the long run you may go down. China out produces Japan . japan motorcycle makers sold at cost or a little below it in the USA / Canada to getting the market for there bikes started way back when. China companies are in an even better spot then Japan was due to the Goverment owning allot of companies. They can under cut and do the say thing. I m not saying that it's going to happen but with motorcycling here being more of a hobby then daily transport you never know. I really don't dought it but Japan motorcycle makers are kind of like Mircosoft . All it take is a 3 or 4 Apple like motorcycle companies in china deciding they want the market share. Producing motorcycle / scooters that are on par at under par pricing and the ship might hit a reef. You never know what going to Happen .
The late 60s was the turning point for all motorcycle makers. Harley felt the pinch from the British bikes - and the British felt the pinch from the Japanese bikes. When the Honda CB750 debuted we were all amazed at how fast quiet and smooth it was and how well it handled.

At the time I remember a friend going through a lot of bikes trying to find the right one for him. He sold a perfectly good 67 Bonneville to buy the Triumph Trident three cylinder 750 (man what a piece of crap that was!) - Triumph's answer to the CB750 - according to Triumph. Nobody was buying that line - and nobody was buying the Trident either. I think it lasted 2 or 3 model years - as did the BSA triple of that era. They were junk - leaked oil worse than any 5 year old 650 Triumph twin - and wasn't even that fast. He sold it and bought an XLCH Sportster - that too leaked oil - and required constant tuneup to run right. He ended up selling it and bought a Honda CB750. Made him real happy! I had a Kawasaki 500 triple at the time - was very happy with the straight line performance but was used to better handling than it could deliver - even Japan was having problems 'getting it right'.

All except Honda and their CB750. But that didn't last - the other Japanese bike makers caught on - Harley ignored it all - and the British brought out warmed over bikes like the Norton Commando (which I really liked) and the Triumph and BSA triples.

It was sad to see the British bikes fading into the background - except for the Lucas electrics which I had (and still have) a passionate distaste for. I had a 62 Triumph 650 that ran great all the time - and only because it had a magneto ignition - the damned generator never could get with the program - kept burning out regulators - or the regulator would burn out the generator - just depended on whether it was an odd or even day I suppose. I could at least ride it during the day - I just used hand signals for stopping and turning. Cops didn't seem to care - never got a ticket when the brake lights didn't work. And there was no headlight law back then. If I wanted to ride at night I made sure the battery was charged up and I could go about an hour before the headlight dimmed too much to be seen. I put a low wattage bulb in it which helped.

I don't think China (or Taiwan for that matter) is going to take over the scooter market in the USA. Seems the market is flooded already as evidenced by the plethora of used low mileage scooters available. I bought my Burgman in March for $5000 out the door - a 2008 exec model with almost 4k on the clock. Big small or inbetween scooters - there seems to be many used ones available in my area. Unless gas prices climb astronomically I think thats the way it'll stay. Americans like cars - there are just some abnormals among us that like 2 wheel travel. It stays at a given percentage and rarely fluctuates I'm guessing. And lets face it - we all know someone (2 or 10) that should stick with 4 wheelers - and we try to limit them in that area as much as we can too.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:01 AM   #19
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As I tried to say when it happen over the next 15 years Japen may be forced into the same place British bike makers were. Yes right now china is somewhat garbage but flash back to 1950 and made in Japen meant cheap etc. Like china is thought of today. Bristh bike makers tried and tried but didn't have the cash to complete with japan.
I don't think it was so much a cash problem for the Brits as much as a complacency attitude. "We always made them like that, so it's fine". Faulty electrics, poor machining (oil leaks), generally poor workmanship via constant labor problems. Customers will only put up with that crap when there's no alternative. Once Japan arrived with a quality product with none of the above problems, all bets were off.

Even faced with the Japanese competition, the Brits continued to produce the same crap, never saw the writing on the wall. US car makers did after VW, and especially, again, the Japanese arrived. If it wasn't for them, we'd still be driving the crap US cars were in the 60's and 70's. I'm sure Jerry H. will chime in here about how wonderful his Pinto was (is? ), but I think everyone else will agree there were dramatic improvements to the US auto industry when faced with Japanese competition.

Why the Brits never ditched Lucas is anyone's guess. I guess maybe they were so tied to them, and there was no other Brit supplier? Needless to say, the same fate awaited the Brit auto industry. Many classic marques gone, and the remaining ones generally foreign owned.

I don't see the Chinese eclipsing the Japanese for quite some time. Japanese motorcycle/scooter products are the best in the industry, people will still pay a little more for quality, reliability, and a nationwide parts/dealer network.
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:18 AM   #20
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... Why the Brits never ditched Lucas is anyone's guess. I guess maybe they were so tied to them, and there was no other Brit supplier? Needless to say, the same fate awaited the Brit auto industry. Many classic marques gone, and the remaining ones generally foreign owned.
Bosch was the first company to come up with a really decent electrical system for vehicles, and they held all the patents. So basically everyone had two choices -- pay royalties to Bosch to use their system, or use a lesser system. Lucas tried to split the difference; they took the Bosch design and changed it just enough to avoid the Bosch patents. Unfortunately, the patents really were on the important stuff, so the changes to avoid them made the system work worse. The British manufacturers could save quite a bit of money going with Lucas, so that's what they did.

Quote:
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... I don't see the Chinese eclipsing the Japanese for quite some time. Japanese motorcycle/scooter products are the best in the industry, people will still pay a little more for quality, reliability, and a nationwide parts/dealer network.
That's the key. You need more than a cheaper product to make it big; you need a better product. The Chinese haven't got that, and there is little sign that it is coming soon.

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Old 10-24-2012, 01:01 PM   #21
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I think at some point in time, mainland China will get the quality of the products they produce up, but it will not likely ever be as good as Japan's quality - but then, who is?

It's a global economy. I have a Korean car that I have had for a long time, and it has proven to be very reliable. I have a Japanese motorcycle, and an American truck. All of them are very good.

I would not hesitate to buy a motorcycle or scooter made in Taiwan or Thailand, or Italy... but as of today I will not buy it if it was made in mainland China, I don't care who's name is on the tank.
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Old 10-24-2012, 01:29 PM   #22
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However, Taiwan made scooters are a whole nother story. They build quality scooters, and for a lot less than the Japanese. Also, most of their dealers do not play games and try to rip off customers with all sorts of bogus fees like the Japanese dealers do. I can buy a new Kymco for MSRP plus sales tax, title, and registration. No bogus freight, setup, and doc fees, which add several hundred to the price. And the MSRP is a lot lower to begin with. The only issue is resale value is a bit lower, but I but a bike to ride, not to sell. And another thing, Japanese scooters are actually disappearing already. Both my Zuma 125 and Vino 125 are Taiwanese scooters. They may have a Japanese name on them, but that's all. They say :made in Taiwan on them, and have a Taiwan VIN. The era of scooters actually made in Japan appears to be about over. .
Sorry to burst your bubble, but most of the Kymco product sold here is made in China. And the reason the dealers don't add on fees is that the bikes have mad markup in them, compared to Japanese brands. There is more profit to the dealer in a Kymco Agility 50 at MSRP than there is in any of the Yamaha or Honda 50cc products. When you look at the Kymco models made in Taiwan, the prices are close to, or more than, what the Japanese bikes sell for, which is why you don't see a lot of them on the road.
The SYM product sold here is from China, as are the Piaggio Fly's, and much of the Japanese product that comes into the US. Most of the small Honda scooters in the US used to come from Mexico. What makes Japanese companies produce better products is that you have many companies that can go out of business if they don't make what people want to buy vs a system whereby the government makes sure everything is interchangeable and the goal is to keep everyone working. Most of the bottom feeder Chinese brands are money losers, but they keep people employed.
One thing that is really going to affect the quality and availability of Chinese scooters in the near future is the fact that they were recently banned in 200 of the largest Chinese cities.
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Old 10-24-2012, 01:40 PM   #23
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The Kymco People 200 and 300, DownTown 200 and 300 and the Xciting are still made in Taiwan. The smaller scooters are made in Kymco's China factory, Not sure of the Movie 150 that took the People 150s place. haven't seen one yet.

Also I was told many of the parts are still made in the Taiwan factory and shipped to China for assembly.
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:55 PM   #24
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Bosch was the first company to come up with a really decent electrical system for vehicles, and they held all the patents. So basically everyone had two choices -- pay royalties to Bosch to use their system, or use a lesser system.

The British manufacturers could save quite a bit of money going with Lucas, so that's what they did.

PhilB
Did the American car companies use Bosch patents? Because that was one thing they did pretty well, electrics.

I know they avoided paying patent money, like to that guy who invented the intermittent wiper.

If the Brits used Lucas to avoid patent money, that was certainly poor economics. Can't think of a worse electrical supplier, well, maybe equaled by Marelli on the old Alfa's and Ducati's, another horror show.
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:17 PM   #25
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Did the American car companies use Bosch patents? Because that was one thing they did pretty well, electrics.

I know they avoided paying patent money, like to that guy who invented the intermittent wiper.

If the Brits used Lucas to avoid patent money, that was certainly poor economics. Can't think of a worse electrical supplier, well, maybe equaled by Marelli on the old Alfa's and Ducati's, another horror show.
I think the American companies managed to develop their own systems that were decent eventually. The American car companies were big enough to be able to make that investment; none of the British car or bike makers at that time were capable of that.

The Lucas usage was definitely poor economics in the long term, but at the time it may have been the best they could do. There were a lot of freaky rules after WWII in Britain (and other places) regarding imports and exports and local sourcing and all that; some of those lingered for quite a while. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that was also a factor.

I haven't had a lot of experience with the Lucas stuff directly, but I grew up with the Marelli on the Alfas and such. Between my parents, my wife, and I, we've put well over 500K on an assortment of half a dozen Alfas, vintages ranging from a 1964 Giulia TI to a 1981 GTV6. The problems with the Marelli stuff semed to mostly be assembly related. The components weren't too bad, and once you got it set up right, the systems worked pretty well. The SPICA mechanical fuel injection was the same way; it had a terrible reputation, and many people junked the whole system and put in Weber carbs, but my '73 Berlina had the SPICA, and again, once you got it set up right, it worked quite well.

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Old 10-24-2012, 04:40 PM   #26
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What other Kymco models besides the Agility 50 and 125 are made in China? And even those models are 10 times better than you average cheap Chinese scooter, like Roketa. Those things are literally falling apart in the crate when the dealers gets them.

As for my '72 Pinto, yes it is running just fine, and has been trouble free for over 9 years now. It does require some maintenance, it had a points and coil ignition, and a mechanical voltage regulator, but all my vehicles get over maintained anyway, as they are hobbies for me. The key to how well the Pinto (and many other vehicles from that time, including the VW bug) works is it is well made, the mechanical parts are high quality (the engine , a 2.0L OHC design, is from Germany), and was actually built in Germany, unlike todays BMWs. But it lacks the cheap third world made electronics of newer vehicles. I can guarantee my Pinto does not have a single Chinese part on it. The 8-track player was made in Taiwan, and has worked fine. I have been working on U.S. brand vehicles for a living for 35 years now, and have yet to see any of the electronics (and in fact most other parts) that were actually made here. Your average Chevy is at least 30% Chinese. If these parts were actually made in the U.S., and were of high quality, they would probably work very well. While I don't work on them, newer cars like Mercedes, BMW, VW, and Audi break down a lot as well, again mostly due to the third world parts on them. Today, a Honda motorcycle is more reliable than a BMW. The reason seems to be that BMW uses more cheap Chinese parts. The new BMW scooters seem to be mostly Chinese.


So the Chinese plague of cheap junk goes far beyond the cheap junk that actually has a Chinese brand on it. This stuff has found it's way into most major brands as well. I just heard something on the news about "counterfeit" Chinese air bags being used in many brands of new vehicles. I believe these were being used as replacements for collision repair, not installed by manufacturers.

But the fact remains that more and more well known "quality" brands are either being built in China, or being assembled elsewhere out of Chinese parts. They even find their way into aircraft, including military aircraft. So in a sense, Chinese stuff has already taken over.
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:40 PM   #27
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I restored British roadsters (Triumphs) for a number of years. Lucas electrics aren't that bad once you understand them They never gave me that much trouble.

Lucas was to the British what AC Delco was to the US. I don't know if I buy the Bosch thing.
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:46 PM   #28
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Every Kymco in the 2013 US line up with the exception of the People 200 and 300, the Downtown 200 and 300, and the Xciting 500 ( don't know about the Movie 150 yet) is made in their China plant. That includes the Super 8 and Like 200.

Vin starting with RFB= made in Taiwan
Vin starting with LC2= made in China
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:40 PM   #29
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Every Kymco in the 2013 US line up with the exception of the People 200 and 300, the Downtown 200 and 300, and the Xciting 500 ( don't know about the Movie 150 yet) is made in their China plant. That includes the Super 8 and Like 200.

Vin starting with RFB= made in Taiwan
Vin starting with LC2= made in China
Sad. But I guess there is no reason to doubt that. Soon they will all be made in China. Like I said, China IS taking over, just not with their own brands. And what's worse, most people who think they are buying a European, American, Japanese, Taiwanese, or Korean product are actually buying Chinese. The Soviets used to claim they could take over the world without firing a shot. It looks like the Chinese are actually doing it.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:22 PM   #30
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I haven't had a lot of experience with the Lucas stuff directly, but I grew up with the Marelli on the Alfas and such. Between my parents, my wife, and I, we've put well over 500K on an assortment of half a dozen Alfas, vintages ranging from a 1964 Giulia TI to a 1981 GTV6. The problems with the Marelli stuff semed to mostly be assembly related. The components weren't too bad, and once you got it set up right, the systems worked pretty well. The SPICA mechanical fuel injection was the same way; it had a terrible reputation, and many people junked the whole system and put in Weber carbs, but my '73 Berlina had the SPICA, and again, once you got it set up right, it worked quite well.

PhilB
Funny thing about the British cars, the same Lucas light, lens, etc. would show up on several different cars, and in different places. A license plate light on one car would be a dash light on another. The same tail light lens would appear on different cars, sometimes vertical, sometimes horizontal.

I had my own nightmare back then, dual side draft Solex's on my 190SL M-B. I wish I'd had a nice set of 40DCOE Webers, and the proper manifold, to replace them.

But the electrics were no problem. Now my cousin and a friend with Alfa Giulietta Spyder Veloces, they both had electrical problems, and head gasket problems, and 2nd gear problems, etc., but boy, they sounded good.
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