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Old 11-05-2012, 06:47 PM   #76
Navin
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A Honda Accord is an appliance.

A Honda S2000 has character.

Bikes are the same, though yes, some just suck.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:48 PM   #77
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Pfff. The S2000 is just a faster appliance that ruins your hair and your tan.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:51 PM   #78
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Compared to other cars, of course. I was just comparing it to other Hondas!
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:54 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by straightrod View Post
^ I don't know. The ones who claim they will buy it if it arrives are sometimes the first ones to start nit piking it to death after the details settle in.
I've seen just what you speak of on a ton of forums not just ADV. It is my opinion that guys who say things like this are young, have kids at home, a mortgage, college loans, a wife who doesn't understand her husband, and perhaps not a ton of cash at his disposal.

I am an old ricer who grew up on Honda's and am not the guy I just described. Far from it. I could write a check for this bike and I will if they bring it
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:07 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by jerryh View Post
as for that cb1100f, it's a beauty, but they got something wrong. The seat look like a potato chip. Certainly does not look comfortable.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:17 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by cug View Post
Bikes are machines, they don't have characters. They just have flaws that you decided to like at some point. You seem to have decided that you like unreliable junk, but you want it to be reliable. Interesting idea.

Hondas have less (obvious) flaws than most other bikes, therefore people say, they have no "character". But if you are looking for "soul", or "character" or something like that in a bike you might want to think about the rest of your life.
No, character isn't just "flaws that you decide to like." You may reject the existence of the intangibles people refer to as "character" but there's no point in miscategorizing it. In some situations, character can be simply be the noise and feel of a V4 or V-Twin in a sea of inline 4's. It's one reason something like an RC51 has more appeal for many than the 929/954; people don't harbor a special affection for the former because it's cramped and runs hot in traffic.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:46 PM   #82
NateLePain
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http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/09/07...t-ride-review/
All of you who put crayon to paper over the last few years to tell Honda to go back to building simple,

...the latest installment: the $4499 2013 Honda CRF250L. Using a slightly modded version of last year’s all-new CBR250R liquid-cooled injected Single in a new chassis, the CRF...

... For $4499, it seems like a helluva nice little bike that works great and should be cheap to keep. Stay tuned for a full test soon.

...put down the crayons. Honda says there’s lots more exciting stuff to come.


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Old 11-05-2012, 11:48 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
Bikes are machines, they don't have characters. They just have flaws that you decided to like at some point. You seem to have decided that you like unreliable junk, but you want it to be reliable. Interesting idea.

Hondas have less (obvious) flaws than most other bikes, therefore people say, they have no "character". But if you are looking for "soul", or "character" or something like that in a bike you might want to think about the rest of your life.
You don't understand. Character is what makes the motorcycle feel like a motorcycle. Those little unrefined things the machine does that instantly reminds you where you are and what you're doing. It's not about flaws you accept it's about physical and audible feedback. Feedback that tunes you into the experience of the ride.

The XR1200 I rode was a perfect example. Now I've never been a Harley fan, I always thought they were inferior because of their refusal to adopt modern technology. So having this mindset I throw a leg over the bike and thumbed the starter. Right off I felt the solid engagement of the starter clutch and the heard the pop from the exhaust as it fired. In that instant the bike had my full attention like someone snapped their fingers in front of my face. A grin then grew under my helmet and I began to understand why people dig these bikes so much. It gives you that feeling like you're on a machine. When you ride it you're aware that within the engine great explosions are going off thousands of times per minute, valves are opening and slamming shut. When you shift the transmission you hear the gear dogs slamming into place you can feel them through the shifter as they hit home under the command of your foot. All of this sensory feedback tells you that you have a real machine under you and you are the one telling it what to do. It's a feeling of power and control and that's what really connects you with the motorcycle. This is how I define character.

Once you start engineering the bike to be smoother and more comfortable you then soften all those feelings. You whisk away all the vibrations and mechanical thuds. You quite down all the sounds, the pops and the clunks. In turn you loose that connection to the bike, you begin to feel isolated, like your not there anymore. Then the machine looses your attention. All those little reminders disappear and you loose touch with what's going on at any given moment. You then feel like the bike just does all the work for you. Like you're just sitting on top of it letting it take you where ever you're going.

If you're not a real gear head then this probably doesn't bother you. You're not the kind of person that really cares what a bike feels like. You want it to take you places so you can take nice pictures or just get you out of the house, then you buy a nice little boring bike that you'll never have to fix. But if you're truly passionate about machines then you want that full experience. You want it because you love how machines work, how they sound, how they look, how they feel, then you want to ride something with a bit of this "character."

You have to have passion to understand the meaning of character and I suspect that's a trait you simply do not posses. Maybe you're the kind of person that works some boring office job, drives a diesel car, and only has sex in the missionary position. If that's the case then maybe it's you that should be the one thinking about the rest of your life.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:28 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meter Man View Post
People always say this, but it doesn't make sense.

Honda for example is the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. They also have the largest share in the USA if considering all motorcycles (street and dirt), 2nd largest share after HD if only considering street motorcycles and only very slightly behind.

They seem to be doing it right. Japanese motorcycles in general hold about 60% of the USA market share give or take depending on the year.

I agree with the rest of your post.
When you break down the market, the cruiser segment is still the big piece of the pie. Honda has permanently stationed Japanese engineers and designers here in the US to study this segment. It's how they came up with the Fury, the VTX, the "custom" line, and why they decided to kill the VLX.
In regard to other lines, they pretty much kill it in the sportbike and touring segments because those riders are buying performance or luxury. The American cruiser market is a weird bird with cultural attachment that Honda has a hard time getting.
So, maybe they've finally realized that they can never be Harley, and that's really what cruiser riders want (or they want something half the price that looks and sounds like one). And maybe that's why the 500 is being released here. They're ready to own the "street bike" market again by doing it the same way they did it before.

Personally, I like these techno ships like the NC and the VF1200. But I'd really like a VTX1300 powered adventure bike. I love that engine and wouldn't mind it in a standard chassis with my feet under me, or a cafe bike with my feet behind and my nose on the gauges. Like an MT01 type thing. But, that'll never happen, eh?
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:01 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter Pewterschmidt View Post
You don't understand. Character is what makes the motorcycle feel like a motorcycle. Those little unrefined things the machine does that instantly reminds you where you are and what you're doing. It's not about flaws you accept it's about physical and audible feedback. Feedback that tunes you into the experience of the ride.

The XR1200 I rode was a perfect example. Now I've never been a Harley fan, I always thought they were inferior because of their refusal to adopt modern technology. So having this mindset I throw a leg over the bike and thumbed the starter. Right off I felt the solid engagement of the starter clutch and the heard the pop from the exhaust as it fired. In that instant the bike had my full attention like someone snapped their fingers in front of my face. A grin then grew under my helmet and I began to understand why people dig these bikes so much. It gives you that feeling like you're on a machine. When you ride it you're aware that within the engine great explosions are going off thousands of times per minute, valves are opening and slamming shut. When you shift the transmission you hear the gear dogs slamming into place you can feel them through the shifter as they hit home under the command of your foot. All of this sensory feedback tells you that you have a real machine under you and you are the one telling it what to do. It's a feeling of power and control and that's what really connects you with the motorcycle. This is how I define character.

Once you start engineering the bike to be smoother and more comfortable you then soften all those feelings. You whisk away all the vibrations and mechanical thuds. You quite down all the sounds, the pops and the clunks. In turn you loose that connection to the bike, you begin to feel isolated, like your not there anymore. Then the machine looses your attention. All those little reminders disappear and you loose touch with what's going on at any given moment. You then feel like the bike just does all the work for you. Like you're just sitting on top of it letting it take you where ever you're going.

If you're not a real gear head then this probably doesn't bother you. You're not the kind of person that really cares what a bike feels like. You want it to take you places so you can take nice pictures or just get you out of the house, then you buy a nice little boring bike that you'll never have to fix. But if you're truly passionate about machines then you want that full experience. You want it because you love how machines work, how they sound, how they look, how they feel, then you want to ride something with a bit of this "character."

You have to have passion to understand the meaning of character and I suspect that's a trait you simply do not posses. Maybe you're the kind of person that works some boring office job, drives a diesel car, and only has sex in the missionary position. If that's the case then maybe it's you that should be the one thinking about the rest of your life.
I totally disagree with your statement (more like a rant anyway). And I don't see how it fits in this discussion either.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:15 AM   #86
dogjaw
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So a bike has to be run rough and be prone to failure to have character? I guess I don't qualify as a true gear head...

I am really excited about the new Hondas, just hope that my expectations aren't too high and they don't roll out some new paint jobs on old cruisers. I'm holding off on going to the IMS show in Dallas until I get a better idea on what new models might be there.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:43 AM   #87
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They are going to bring back the CBX 1000.....









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Mountain Cruiser screwed with this post 11-06-2012 at 06:57 AM
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:37 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Ah, finally someone found a good way to put it. That's pretty much how I feel about all modern bikes. No character, no style, no "soul" If you could capture the character of a mid '60s Triumph, but make it reliable (I mean mechanically reliable, not add junk like FI and ABS) I would be looking to take out a second mortgage right now. IMO, the carbed EVO powered Harleys were the last bikes sold in the U.S. to have any character. I can't see for the life of me how something like a Ducati Panigale has any character. It's a plastic covered computer on wheels. Now the early '70s 750SS on the other hand.......

As for that CB1100F, it's a beauty, but they got something wrong. The seat look like a potato chip. Certainly does not look comfortable. And the seat/tank lines are wrong. Remember back in the '70s, when the top of the seat and the top of the tank lined up?

hmmm, sounds like you still have shag carpet in your van. just poking a little fun at you - but seriously, FI and ABS is junk? I think if you had to live with a mid 60's Triumph for a while, you would change your mind. Modern bikes have plenty of character, yes, even the Japanese ones.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:42 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter Pewterschmidt View Post
It's not about flaws you accept
Your rant is some of th biggest BS I've read on a while. You say it's not about accepted flaws and then you waste a whole bunch of time explaining how engineering away mechanical flaws takes away character.

And then you start trying to offend me just because you can't find logical arguments that actually work. You a poor soul with a misunderstanding that machines are just that - machines. Different behavior and different flaws give you a different feel when you use that machine. What you try is defining how mechanical differences, lots of them I would call flaws, make up something that is only found in a living creature. Pretty dumb in my opinion.

And to get back to Honda, the main issue with Honda is that they were purely money driven. They aren't the passionate people of Triumph or KTM or HD. They are bean counters, and they have different taste than a lot of folks. I would say they need to fire their designers, but that's just my taste.

The truth is that Honda hasn't done anything worthwhile for about 10 years. They have build some half assed copies of other bikes, some bold new graphics, and only in the last year started to do more again. They need to get off their asses and start building exciting bikes again. Maybe they bring some of the nicer ones over from Europe, maybe they bring back an onslought of cruisers. It doesn't matter, as long as they are moving again.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:53 AM   #90
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Character is what the individual imparts to the machine. For some it's the sex of a Ducati 916, or the beat of a Harley v-twin, or the fussiness of Amal carbs on an old Triumph.
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