ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Some Assembly Required
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-20-2013, 11:19 AM   #481
sanjoh
Purveyor of Light
 
sanjoh's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Mountains of Central Florida:)
Oddometer: 4,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailah View Post
I didn't miss it, I just don't think it reflects the reality of how I ride. I can ride a big bike smooth, as easy as a smaller bike. Maybe if I were riding normally but I tend to launch hard on pavement and without some cushion in the driveline, that power gets transmitted to the wheels abruptly. whether it's 300cc or 1000cc, that torque gets delivered to a wheel without any cushioning to speak of other than slack in the chain and the knobs distorting.

Maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but it appears obvious that whacking the throttle hard on a bike that weighs close to 400# with a rider that weighs 230# and with more hp and torque, that driveline forces would be elevated. Pulses from the less lumpy motor I can see being smoothed out in just normal riding. I don't think the normal riding is what is destroying the hub. I think it's the wheelies and hard acceleration on a hub that was never designed for that kind of power, not to mention the longer sprocket bolts that are cantilevered out further due to the 1/4" spacer for chain alignment.

I'm not saying you are wrong, it's just hard to wrap my little brain around your argument, that's all.

On a related note, I took out my FZ1 with 950 suspension/wheels out last night. It had been awhile since I rode it and it has more power than the ninja and the 600RFS in discussion combined. But it is so smooth. I was accelerating very hard and you could feel the cush drive doing its thing. The abruptness was there of the power, but the snatchiness was diminished. I've been enjoying the ninja so much I was thinking it would be a disappointment to get back on the bigger, heavier FZ1. But I was wrong. What takes away from the FZ1 is the unfinished nature of the build and things that aren't right. I was telling my buddies at bike night last night that I plan to redo a large percentage of the bike. Main areas I will focus on redoing are the entire subframe and the shock mount. I want to flatten out the rise of the seat angle like the Ninja so it's more comfortable. Clean up a bunch of crap welds and spend the time to machine things. The FZ1 (and a good portion of the Ninja) was done before I had access to waterjets, mills and other fabrication equipment. The components of the FZ1 are so nice it would be a shame to not bring the auxiliary work up to par with what I know I am capable of.

I feel the same way about the Ninja in some regards. There are things I plan to redo completely on the Ninja, but they are smaller in scope. Just refine the design spiral I guess.

Sounds like you need another project
sanjoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2013, 11:50 AM   #482
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjoh View Post
Sounds like you need another project
I have one Street tracker
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2013, 04:13 PM   #483
Salsa
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Kalifornia, Alaska, Arizona
Oddometer: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by mousitsas
My guess is that you miss the fact that a 650cc twin places the same impact forces as a 300cc single, the 650 just has two of them (but not simultaneously).

"I didn't miss it, I just don't think it reflects the reality of how I ride. I can ride a big bike smooth, as easy as a smaller bike. Maybe if I were riding normally but I tend to launch hard on pavement and without some cushion in the driveline, that power gets transmitted to the wheels abruptly. whether it's 300cc or 1000cc, that torque gets delivered to a wheel without any cushioning to speak of other than slack in the chain and the knobs distorting.

Maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but it appears obvious that whacking the throttle hard on a bike that weighs close to 400# with a rider that weighs 230# and with more hp and torque, that driveline forces would be elevated. Pulses from the less lumpy motor I can see being smoothed out in just normal riding. I don't think the normal riding is what is destroying the hub. I think it's the wheelies and hard acceleration on a hub that was never designed for that kind of power, not to mention the longer sprocket bolts that are cantilevered out further due to the 1/4" spacer for chain alignment.

I'm not saying you are wrong, it's just hard to wrap my little brain around your argument, that's all."


I'm about halfway between you on the thump vs twin. I would say the twin has about 65-75 % of the load of the same size single. The twin usually has little torque in the low RPM range where the single effect is worse.

I think the drive train snatch has a BIG load factor in drive train failures.

As to the 1/4 offset sprocket, the tighter the bolts, the less bending. locktite between the surfaces would help if the load doesn't break them apart.

Don
Salsa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2013, 05:17 PM   #484
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,408
yeah I cranked the bolts down, used loctite and new flanged nylocks. I will be keeping a very close eye on them.
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2013, 06:54 PM   #485
4play
Next?
 
4play's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Avondale, AZ
Oddometer: 2,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailah View Post
yeah I cranked the bolts down, used loctite and new flanged nylocks. I will be keeping a very close eye on them.
I've got 1700 miles on my 3/4" spacer & bolts, no worries, no issues

__________________
Seabee1 "Cute like baby rabbits"

4play screwed with this post 09-20-2013 at 08:18 PM
4play is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 09:26 PM   #486
mousitsas
Beastly Adventurer
 
mousitsas's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Athens, Greece
Oddometer: 2,681
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailah View Post
I didn't miss it, I just don't think it reflects the reality of how I ride. I can ride a big bike smooth, as easy as a smaller bike. Maybe if I were riding normally but I tend to launch hard on pavement and without some cushion in the driveline, that power gets transmitted to the wheels abruptly. whether it's 300cc or 1000cc, that torque gets delivered to a wheel without any cushioning to speak of other than slack in the chain and the knobs distorting.

Maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but it appears obvious that whacking the throttle hard on a bike that weighs close to 400# with a rider that weighs 230# and with more hp and torque, that driveline forces would be elevated. Pulses from the less lumpy motor I can see being smoothed out in just normal riding. I don't think the normal riding is what is destroying the hub. I think it's the wheelies and hard acceleration on a hub that was never designed for that kind of power, not to mention the longer sprocket bolts that are cantilevered out further due to the 1/4" spacer for chain alignment.

I'm not saying you are wrong, it's just hard to wrap my little brain around your argument, that's all.

On a related note, I took out my FZ1 with 950 suspension/wheels out last night. It had been awhile since I rode it and it has more power than the ninja and the 600RFS in discussion combined. But it is so smooth. I was accelerating very hard and you could feel the cush drive doing its thing. The abruptness was there of the power, but the snatchiness was diminished. I've been enjoying the ninja so much I was thinking it would be a disappointment to get back on the bigger, heavier FZ1. But I was wrong. What takes away from the FZ1 is the unfinished nature of the build and things that aren't right. I was telling my buddies at bike night last night that I plan to redo a large percentage of the bike. Main areas I will focus on redoing are the entire subframe and the shock mount. I want to flatten out the rise of the seat angle like the Ninja so it's more comfortable. Clean up a bunch of crap welds and spend the time to machine things. The FZ1 (and a good portion of the Ninja) was done before I had access to waterjets, mills and other fabrication equipment. The components of the FZ1 are so nice it would be a shame to not bring the auxiliary work up to par with what I know I am capable of.

I feel the same way about the Ninja in some regards. There are things I plan to redo completely on the Ninja, but they are smaller in scope. Just refine the design spiral I guess.

You think in terms of torque, rater than in terms of a hammering action the drive train sees every time there is explosion in the cylinder. It is this hammering destroying rear hubs, not torque. So, despite of how you ride your bike, the hammering is that of each one of your pistons.
mousitsas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 06:21 AM   #487
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by mousitsas View Post
It is this hammering destroying rear hubs, not torque.
Sorry, not buying that argument. My hub is on its way out and has been on the bike 1200 miles. Hardly enough time for the metal to have fatigued. I understand the argument you are making, I just don't agree.

If your argument were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. My sprocket bolts wallowing out the hubs were caused by me riding like a jagoff and doing wheelies. Which is a function of torque applied very quickly. There is enough give in the chain to smooth out the pulses of the motor. There is not enough give to smooth out a hard whack of the throttle, which is why the front end comes up.
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 10:44 AM   #488
Roadracer_Al
louder, louder, louder!
 
Roadracer_Al's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Oakland, CA
Oddometer: 1,472
One key to making spacers and bolts live nicely together on sprockets is to have the hole in the spacer a butt-hole tight fit on the bolt.

If the holes are oversize, that allows room for the bolts to tip/lever against the hub, causing the wallered-out threaded holes.

You should basically need to drive the bolts through the spacer with a mallet.

You could salvage the hub by using Time-Sert threaded inserts. Basically like a helicoil, but it's a solid insert that is a bit bigger & stronger. Use the mill and open the holes up with the bolt circle function on the DRO... don't just drill them out by hand or they will come out crooked.

Linky:

http://www.timesert.com/
__________________
------------------------------
Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow
------------------------------
New Rider Training in the San Francisco Bay Area at Motorcycle University". Learn to Ride...Better!
Roadracer_Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 02:33 PM   #489
2fast4u
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Tennessee
Oddometer: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by mousitsas View Post
You think in terms of torque, rater than in terms of a hammering action the drive train sees every time there is explosion in the cylinder. It is this hammering destroying rear hubs, not torque. So, despite of how you ride your bike, the hammering is that of each one of your pistons.
This could be true if it was a motor using NITRO METHANOL fuel.
2fast4u is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 06:02 PM   #490
jdrocks
Gravel Runner
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Oddometer: 3,976
Quote:
Originally Posted by mousitsas View Post
...the hammering is that of each one of your pistons.
nah, in your case, too much ouzo = hammered...
jdrocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 09:21 AM   #491
mousitsas
Beastly Adventurer
 
mousitsas's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Athens, Greece
Oddometer: 2,681
Thanks

Ok I will be even more brief, since too many words confuse.

Impact forces cause metal fatigue and aluminum being very brittle, is particularly susceptible to this.

What breaks after you hammer that throttle has been first severely fatigued by lack of a cushion medium. Otherwise why cush drives exist? For the torque alone? No. An electric motor with 10 times the power and torque wouldn't ever need one.

Lattice structure and all that.

mousitsas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2013, 06:44 PM   #492
bk brkr baker
Beastly Adventurer
 
bk brkr baker's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: The Bluegrass
Oddometer: 5,304
__________________
RR's Catnip Hill to Peoria ___Loopin' Seattle to WestFest
It started with some beers __1500 miles to the Dentist
Skeedaddle to Seattle______ A 30 year old on a Three Flags Run
bk brkr baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2014, 09:23 PM   #493
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,408
Been awhile..

Got the bike back on my sweet new lift table. Let me just pause here for a minute. Up until now I did all my work clambering around on some cold ass floor and contorting in all sorts of directions. No more. This is the mack daddy of all lift tables. It's 36x72, full hydraulic, weighs 700# and can lift 2500 lbs. Made by Southworth, they come up for sale often at industrial auctions. I scored mine for $300 and put another $100 into it with a nice old skool crane up/down pendant and various rewiring etc to my 3 phase.

Anywho, trying to tackle some lingering projects from last year and refine the idea of the ninja a bit more.




Got started on the chain tensioner assembly. My bike has a wicked chain droop at full extension and I need to at least keep it to a minimum.

I designed out the arm and cut it on the waterjet today. Put it in the lathe in the 4 jaw and bored it to fit the 6200 bearing.



Boring



Bearing is a very snug slip fit. I should have left a little in there. I'll use bearing retainer and it should be good.



Here's the shot looking up under the bike. The pivot will have a shoulder bolt which I'm waiting on. The roller I made from a piece of Teflon I had laying around. I bored it out for 2 bearings and it rolls nicely.

The idea is to attach a spring to the other side of the arm and it will pull tension on the chain. I spent a lot of time with the bike up and down, figuring out where it was at rider sag, where the chain was at full droop. I think I have a good enough compromise to keep things cool. I'll weld the boss to the frame and figure out where to attach the spring and also how to stop the slider from going up past a certain spot. I got a 20lb/in spring as my best lever arm calculation could give me. We'll see how it works.



I also checked my sag I had been running last year I was WAY too light. Static sag was in the 80mm range with race sag at 170mm as I had the shock. I took measurements of the preload and started cranking it in. I ended up with quite a bit of preload measured from the shock body to the collar with calipers. But with that I got 40mm static, and 125 race. Now I can get the suspension worked on and hopefully dial it back to where I had it.

Other plans are to remake the side stand from steel this time. My aluminum was a failure because I welded it and lost the strength. I trust steel more and with some decent DOM shouldn't weigh much more

I also want to start working on the rally fairing, projector headlights etc. I'll see how the winter goes.

I also got a new set of cush drive wheels, they are coming tomorrow can't wait.
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2014, 02:15 PM   #494
Bambi
Studly Adventurer
 
Bambi's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Linz upon Rhine, Germany
Oddometer: 680
Hello sailah,
nice to see you going on. I was a bit afraid that you had given up the build. Although that doesn't seem to fit into your vocabulary ...
Kind regards, Bambi
__________________
'Find me kindness, find me beauty, find me truth ...'
(Dreamtheater, Learning to live)
Bambi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2014, 03:15 PM   #495
Te Hopo
AKA Deanohit
 
Te Hopo's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Picton, New Zealand
Oddometer: 900
Awesome, this has always been my favorite dirt ninja build, I'm glad to see you're going to continue on with it

Sent from my XT320 using Tapatalk 2
Te Hopo is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 12:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014