ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Some Assembly Required
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-16-2012, 08:58 AM   #91
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,462
Luke,

I think you are right but a lot depends on the sweep and rise of the bars. The only factory bike I have in my stable is a 2012 Husky and I think the pegs are too high for longer distance riding. Being on my third build allows me to see further down the path than before so I am planning on really spending time nailing the location of the pegs. As you pointed out it's important in both seated and standing positions.

Fortunately I have a linkage setup on this bike and I enjoy playing around with that stuff. Making a cool linkage from rod ends and aluminum rod.

As far as the seat, I need to put the tank on to really make up my mind. And in order to do that I need to mount the shock and in order to do that I need to design up a mount and in order to do that I need to get the sprocket spacer to see if the chain will align correctly...the design spiral continues on

I do think I will end up modifying the tank, I need to anyways to clear the shock so I might as well do what I want and get a little more comfortable seating position. I will end up losing a little volume but not much. I hope to offset most of the lost volume with a surge tank mounted above the swingarm that will house the fuel pump. And I still have the 1.75G rotopax to mount on the pannier racks.

Oh and I got rid of two bikes in the garage and put them in storage for the winter, the FZ1 and the dirtbike. Thinking of throwing the CBR in there too. It's amazing how much more room I have. I don't have to climb over things just to get a screwdriver or move two bikes to use my lathe. Sweet!!
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk

sailah screwed with this post 12-16-2012 at 09:05 AM
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 09:15 AM   #92
ktmklx
Studly Adventurer
 
ktmklx's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Oddometer: 685
Enjoying your build Sailah. You mentioned being able have others follow your recipe, custom tank with relocated fuel pump and cut up shock mount and sub frame will take this recipe way out of the comfort zone for most shed builders. Just saying. You, on the other hand will have quite a custom ride.

Do you know what your rear travel is going to be?
ktmklx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 09:22 AM   #93
jdrocks
Gravel Runner
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Oddometer: 4,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailah View Post
I do think I will end up modifying the tank, I need to anyways to clear the shock so I might as well do what I want and get a little more comfortable seating position. I will end up losing a little volume but not much. I hope to offset most of the lost volume with a surge tank mounted above the swingarm that will house the fuel pump. And I still have the 1.75G rotopax to mount on the pannier racks.
how about the larger Versys tank? it's supposed to hold 5 gallons, but i put 5.56 in it out in BFE Friday night. the motor missed a beat just as i coasted up to the pumps. i did have two 1L bottles of fuel with me, so 6 gallons on the bike. you sure don't want 2 gallons on the pannier racks unless you're out west or above the border on a route segment with no known fuel stops. it's surprising to find a route with no fuel in the mid atlantic, but so many country and tiny town stations have closed in recent years, 4 gallons on the bike can get ya parked on the side of the road.
jdrocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 11:31 AM   #94
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmklx View Post
Enjoying your build Sailah. You mentioned being able have others follow your recipe, custom tank with relocated fuel pump and cut up shock mount and sub frame will take this recipe way out of the comfort zone for most shed builders. Just saying. You, on the other hand will have quite a custom ride.

Do you know what your rear travel is going to be?
Yeah, it starting to fade away about making this build easily replicated. I wanted to go that route at first but I don't want to compromise things like seating position. If I went with a linkage suspension, which probably would have better due to shock packaging, then it would have been easier to keep components stock. But I didn't because I like the quality of the KTM stuff and I already have a build using it.

I'll keep detailed drawings if someone wants to do it, but I think you are correct it would be a fair amount of custom work. I will say that this build has taken so much less time because of the ability to see "around the corner" and anticipate mistakes. That was a 50% time savings right there.

Everything you see up until now, if you had the KTM parts and the machined parts in your hand, you could do in a couple hours if you were working straight. I have not yet welded anything.

You could avoid the tank issue by just accepting where it is and leaving the seat stock.
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 11:36 AM   #95
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdrocks View Post
how about the larger Versys tank? it's supposed to hold 5 gallons, but i put 5.56 in it out in BFE Friday night. the motor missed a beat just as i coasted up to the pumps. i did have two 1L bottles of fuel with me, so 6 gallons on the bike. you sure don't want 2 gallons on the pannier racks unless you're out west or above the border on a route segment with no known fuel stops. it's surprising to find a route with no fuel in the mid atlantic, but so many country and tiny town stations have closed in recent years, 4 gallons on the bike can get ya parked on the side of the road.
That's a thought. I don't have one to check though.... Originally I was going to make a subframe tank but that was a ton of work and as you know it's not necessary for range where I live. That's why I like the Rotopax setup so much. Adds 1.75 gal, is very light empty, super tough. Just leave it empty and you won't even notice it, fill when needed. It adds another useful feature of being able to easily fill a buddies bike, instead of the petcock bottle filling method which stinks.

I think the stock Ninja tank is 4ish gallons add another 1.75 and getting 50 mpg should be enough range for almost any situation.
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 12:47 PM   #96
jdrocks
Gravel Runner
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Oddometer: 4,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailah View Post

I think the stock Ninja tank is 4ish gallons add another 1.75 and getting 50 mpg should be enough range for almost any situation.
would be ok if you averaged 50mpg on a trip with a combination of surfaces and speeds, but i've never seen it. once you crank up the speeds, the mpg falls off a cliff, and you're into the 30s for economy. the only time i could get any of the ptwin bikes to the 50mpg was on gravel where the average speed was less than 50mph for the whole tank.
jdrocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 01:01 PM   #97
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,462
Hmm, that's interesting. I have just assumed that it got that for mileage, but just as a guess. Hell my KTM 950, carbed and tuned for max hooliganism, got 35 mpg riding like a jagoff everywhere Guess I'm surprised that a bike without a lot of HP would get crap for mileage but you would know the best.

My FZ1 with more than twice the HP got 42 MPG over an 1800 mile trip from Pittsburgh to NC and back. And I was riding like an absolute idiot with routine 12,000 rpm sweeps. And that was hand calc'd using GPS for mileage.

Looks like a lot of 45-55 mpg reports http://www.fuelly.com/motorcycle/kaw...ja%20650r/2007

But that is a street bike and I'm sure mine is going to be much worse with wind resistance
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk

sailah screwed with this post 12-16-2012 at 01:06 PM
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 04:34 PM   #98
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,462
Put the real dirt shock (had the SMR on there) in and found it's about an inch longer.

I need some help getting the top mount close. I obviously did not do my homework correctly on the CBR as I had the top mount too far forward which really softened up the shock action.

As I see it, I am trying to duplicate a RFS KTM geometry within limits of what i have to deal with the Ninja frame. I removed the spring so I can cycle the shock.

My buddy locally took a pic of his 450. It appears, with the bike fully sagged, the front shock mount is about an inch forward of the swingarm axis. We already confirmed the extended length of the shock, eye to eye. I also know the distance between the top shock eye and swingarm center.









Anyone have any better advice than just randomly guessing? I do need to set the rake. I think I am going to make up a single arm that I can tack weld on to check my specs with it sitting under ride weight.
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 04:41 PM   #99
larryboy
Chopper Rider
 
larryboy's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: On a set of 50,000 mile tires.
Oddometer: 14,117
I'd ask your buddy to put the bike on the ground, measure swingarm angle and shock angle, then play with those numbers. Pretty sure you do your bikes with super steep swingarm angles and that might drastically change your spring rate and angle.
__________________
Be sure the safest rule is that we should not dare to live in any scene in which we dare not die. ~Lewis Carroll~
larryboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 05:46 PM   #100
sanjoh
Purveyor of Light
 
sanjoh's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Mountains of Central Florida:)
Oddometer: 4,820
My dirt ninja gets 52mpg avg at 75mph loaded (3 givis) on knobbys.

Best mpg was on a ride with a KLX that was tached out at 55mph, 72mpg

Worst is 43mpg riding deep sand.

The stock ninja is over geared, which tends to keep you around the 3200 rpm rough spot that this motor seems to have. I'm running 14/52 and it is peppy

Looking forward to the solution you come up with on the tank. The stock tank is too wide with the pegs in the right spot which for me is forward about 6" from the stock location.
sanjoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2012, 05:38 PM   #101
dentvet
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: hunt country virginia
Oddometer: 1,270
I think you are doing like i would with a tee square to copy the rfs geometry. ( I don't think any of the heavier bikes have PDS setups to copy)

The only factor I would consider would be to get the angle of the swingarm to be as neutral as possible. I think the ninja sprocket is further from the pivot than a dirtbike and you want your swingarm to live in the neighborhood where the chain isn't digging into the top or bottom all the time.

I have a caved in tank you can have if you want to use the fuel pump mounting ring for your surge tank. (super rio)

dentvet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2012, 05:53 PM   #102
nuggets
Fries with that?
 
nuggets's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Virgina
Oddometer: 1,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailah View Post
Put the real dirt shock (had the SMR on there) in and found it's about an inch longer.

I need some help getting the top mount close. ....

....
Anyone have any better advice than just randomly guessing? I do need to set the rake. I think I am going to make up a single arm that I can tack weld on to check my specs with it sitting under ride weight.
Maybe this will help to find your top mount?



You already have measurements A and C, just get measurement B from the bike you are using as a comparison, and use that to find your top mount location. C is the unweighted measurement of course.*

I am a huge fan of your builds BTW.



*It is possible I could have no clue what I am talking about.

__________________
2001 400 EXC "Punkin" | 2005 Sherco 290 "Tree Climber"
Nuggets' free bike tech clinic.

nuggets screwed with this post 12-17-2012 at 06:03 PM Reason: Caveats
nuggets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2012, 08:36 PM   #103
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by dentvet View Post
I think you are doing like i would with a tee square to copy the rfs geometry. ( I don't think any of the heavier bikes have PDS setups to copy)

The only factor I would consider would be to get the angle of the swingarm to be as neutral as possible. I think the ninja sprocket is further from the pivot than a dirtbike and you want your swingarm to live in the neighborhood where the chain isn't digging into the top or bottom all the time.

I have a caved in tank you can have if you want to use the fuel pump mounting ring for your surge tank. (super rio)
Dent,

Yeah there's more than one factor here on getting the suspension done. I think the rake is very important and which I will spend the most time on. Getting the back end setup should be easy once I get a mount designed and waterjet cut.

I will probably end up making the surge tank bottom from 1/4" plate with the bolt holes machined so I don't think I will need a tank. I will probably use mine for scrap and buy another. Thanks though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuggets View Post
Maybe this will help to find your top mount?



You already have measurements A and C, just get measurement B from the bike you are using as a comparison, and use that to find your top mount location. C is the unweighted measurement of course.*

I am a huge fan of your builds BTW.



*It is possible I could have no clue what I am talking about.

Nuggets,

Thanks for the props, I really do enjoy it. Hoping this one will be really well done. The other builds were good for experience and practicing, but look, well, rough. I want this to look sweet so I plan on taking my time.

Regarding the triangle, that's what I was getting at with the numbers. My buddy said it was 12.75" on his 450. But that doesn't account for swingarm angle as another member pointed out. And if the front end isn't right...

I will say I will try and get a rfs bike in the garage and take some measurements myself. The CBR is way off and that bike is stupid fun. Bit soft in the rear, but it rails. So I think with even a large error in rear suspension, it can still work.
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2012, 11:14 AM   #104
Roadracer_Al
louder, louder, louder!
 
Roadracer_Al's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Oakland, CA
Oddometer: 1,496
Sailah, what I have done in the past on builds involving linkage suspension (i.e. the mounting points are more critical) is to weld up a framework on the donor bike chassis that picks up all the relevant locations -- top shock mounting hole, swing arm hole, link pivote hole. I also tack on a piece that approximates swing arm angle -- mostly, it's at an angle that is known, and I try to replicate it on the recipient bike.

I recognize that this doesn't help you a lot given that you don't have a donor bike in-hand, but it is a useful strategy to keep in your pocket.

FYI, when I do rear suspension work like this, I like these two tools A LOT:

http://www.amazon.com/Wixey-WR300-Di...ords=wix+angle

http://www.amazon.com/Wixey-WR410-8-...xey+protractor
__________________
------------------------------
Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow
------------------------------
New Rider Training in the San Francisco Bay Area at Motorcycle University". Learn to Ride...Better!
Roadracer_Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2012, 06:14 PM   #105
sailah OP
Lampin' it
 
sailah's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Turning expensive metal into scrap
Oddometer: 5,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadracer_Al View Post
Sailah, what I have done in the past on builds involving linkage suspension (i.e. the mounting points are more critical) is to weld up a framework on the donor bike chassis that picks up all the relevant locations -- top shock mounting hole, swing arm hole, link pivote hole. I also tack on a piece that approximates swing arm angle -- mostly, it's at an angle that is known, and I try to replicate it on the recipient bike.

I recognize that this doesn't help you a lot given that you don't have a donor bike in-hand, but it is a useful strategy to keep in your pocket.

FYI, when I do rear suspension work like this, I like these two tools A LOT:

http://www.amazon.com/Wixey-WR300-Di...ords=wix+angle

http://www.amazon.com/Wixey-WR410-8-...xey+protractor
Thanks al, I hope you'll let loose with comments when I start the rear end fab soon. I will try and model it in CAD first to check the wheel travel matches the factory. Should help get it close. Then I'll make up a simple bracket from 16g steel and tack it in place just to check the action on the bike.

I've been looking and sampling machine shops for folks that have lots of capabilities and are close to my house. Found a great shop called Atomatic Manufacturing. These guys do mainly nuclear machining and have the whole gamut. Waterjet, manual machining, full CNC capabilities, welding, pressing, CAD including SolidWorks. AND THE KICKER, they are very friendly and enthusiastic for small orders like mine, with extremely reasonable prices. Got the full shop tour today and was impressed.


http://www.atomatic-mfg.com/

They whipped up my sprocket spacer on the waterjet for $25 and said it would have been a lot cheaper had I ordered more. For the time it would have taken, I was glad they did it. Came out perfect, even chamfered the bolts holes





Course I ordered flat top socket cap screws that were 10mm too short from McMaster so I can't bolt it up. I did make sure to get 10.9 (grade 8) bolts instead of SS to get more strength so will have to keep an eye on the rusting.

Next step is to get cracking on the rear end. Once I get it finalized I will draw the top shock mount in CAD and have those guys burn it on the waterjet and then weld it myself. Last time on the CBR I bought brackets made for car fab and it wasn't quite right. This will allow me to increase the weld contact on the main frame crossbar and also to allow diagonal support.
__________________
We're not out here to rough it. We're here to smooth it . Things are rough enough in town.

Nessmuk
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 03:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014