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Old 02-09-2013, 04:06 PM   #1171
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Careful you may upset Rossi fan bois with that statement. They pray to the alter of "the 2007 Ducati was so good that its the only reason Stoner beat Rossi".
I think Casey retired with his 2 moto gp championships. So it really does not matter for 2013.

Rd650 screwed with this post 02-09-2013 at 06:58 PM
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Old 02-09-2013, 04:26 PM   #1172
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:06 AM   #1173
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Originally Posted by Parx400 View Post
Careful you may upset Rossi fan bois with that statement. They pray to the alter of "the 2007 Ducati was so good that its the only reason Stoner beat Rossi".
Not saying Casey wasn't a talented rider and a multi world champion but most people will admit that the duc's 6-8 years ago were much more competitive than they are today. Troy Bayliss jumped on one for one race in 2006 and won! I don't believe anyone now (dani, JLO, stoner,rossi) can win on the Ducati unless severe weather occurs.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:43 AM   #1174
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Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
The steel trellis frame was crap. Stoner begged Ducati to give him the carbon frame as soon as he tested it, it was so much better.

Ducati don't need a 2007 bike, they need 2007 circumstances: a custom-built tire, Honda and Yamaha aiming at the wrong target (agility instead of fuel efficiency), and the mercurial talent of Casey Stoner. None of those factors are currently available to them. that's their problem.
This is so right.


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Old 02-10-2013, 11:25 AM   #1175
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If this season is a nailbiter down to the last race, and Vale or Marky wins the championship, i bet Casey comes out of retirement on a factory backed satellite Honda
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:28 AM   #1176
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Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
I didn't say that there wasn't a problem with the carbon. But the steel trellis was much worse.
Maybe, but that bike seemed to hold its own with the others more often, and with more than one rider. Just mentioned was Bayliss' wildcard ride, and Capirossi was leading the championship and winning on the thing before being injured.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:07 PM   #1177
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Originally Posted by BeeCeeGS View Post
Maybe, but that bike seemed to hold its own with the others more often, and with more than one rider. Just mentioned was Bayliss' wildcard ride, and Capirossi was leading the championship and winning on the thing before being injured.
You have to separate the 990 from the 800. The bikes were totally different beasts. The 990 had horsepower to spare, and as a consequence, you could use that to turn. The 800 - especially in '07 and '08 - did not have the horsepower, and were much more dependent on the front than on the rear. This trend was exacerbated by the fact that the '07 tires were built with the data from the 990s, and so had masses of grip with the 800s. The 990s had more power than tire, the 800s had more tire than power.

Capirossi could ride around the weak front end of the 990 using the outrageous amount of horsepower the bike had. With the advent of the 880s, that possibility was gone. Bayliss won on the 990, not the 800.

To see the difference in competitiveness between the bikes, compare Capirossi's results from '06 and '07:

06 - 3 wins, 8 podiums, 5 fastest race laps, 2 poles, led for 88 laps, 229 points. This, remember, in a year when he had a massive crash in Barcelona, and rode the next three races pretty banged up.

07 - 1 win, 4 podiums, no fastest race laps, no poles, led for 12 laps, 166 points. His win came in mixed conditions in a flag-to-flag race, and had more to do with wily racecraft than outright speed.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:43 PM   #1178
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Originally Posted by mdubya View Post
I don't think anyone is questioning that. Nicky did compare quite favorably to the GOAT, though, regularly out qualifying and out racing him.

So, I think the point is, Nicky is better than the equipment and team situations he has been stuck with might suggest.

The numbers would be even closer if Nicky hadn't tried to give Ducati podium glory at Mugello.

Shoulda.
Woulda.
Coulda.

The numbers would be closer because of this, and further apart if it weren't for that. This is why the ranking is based on crossing the finish line. The rest is just topspin.

Face it, Hayden has won just three races in 10 years of riding in MGP. That is simply not top-echelon.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:04 PM   #1179
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Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
You have to separate the 990 from the 800. The bikes were totally different beasts. The 990 had horsepower to spare, and as a consequence, you could use that to turn. The 800 - especially in '07 and '08 - did not have the horsepower, and were much more dependent on the front than on the rear. This trend was exacerbated by the fact that the '07 tires were built with the data from the 990s, and so had masses of grip with the 800s. The 990s had more power than tire, the 800s had more tire than power.

Capirossi could ride around the weak front end of the 990 using the outrageous amount of horsepower the bike had. With the advent of the 880s, that possibility was gone. Bayliss won on the 990, not the 800.

To see the difference in competitiveness between the bikes, compare Capirossi's results from '06 and '07:

06 - 3 wins, 8 podiums, 5 fastest race laps, 2 poles, led for 88 laps, 229 points. This, remember, in a year when he had a massive crash in Barcelona, and rode the next three races pretty banged up.

07 - 1 win, 4 podiums, no fastest race laps, no poles, led for 12 laps, 166 points. His win came in mixed conditions in a flag-to-flag race, and had more to do with wily racecraft than outright speed.

Seemed to me when they went to qatar that year in 07 with the 800's the duc had top end on everyone???
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:05 PM   #1180
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It did have loads more top-end than the Yamaha and Hondas (two factories that had gone another (wrong) direction), but having an 800 that is faster than other 800's does not make it faster or more powerful or more competive than the previous 990.
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:19 AM   #1181
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Originally Posted by azkiwi View Post
Face it, Hayden has won just three races in 10 years of riding in MGP. That is simply not top-echelon.
You're lookin' for a noose around your neck saying things like that around here.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:22 AM   #1182
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Originally Posted by dsilver1007 View Post
Not saying Casey wasn't a talented rider and a multi world champion but most people will admit that the duc's 6-8 years ago were much more competitive than they are today. Troy Bayliss jumped on one for one race in 2006 and won! I don't believe anyone now (dani, JLO, stoner,rossi) can win on the Ducati unless severe weather occurs.

Ducati has been a real career-killer for so many riders... the only exception is Stoner, and what happens with Rossi, remains to be seen.

What Ive never really got is that Rossi should have won on the -11 (or -12) bike, BECAUSE Stoner won on the -07 bike??? They had a very long downward spiral in the time between those two seasons. And as was rightly pointed out, its not so much that they went backwards, its more that they stood still, while Honda & Yamaha fixed the problems they had, and moved forward.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:01 AM   #1183
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Originally Posted by brents347 View Post
It did have loads more top-end than the Yamaha and Hondas (two factories that had gone another (wrong) direction), but having an 800 that is faster than other 800's does not make it faster or more powerful or more competive than the previous 990.
I thought they had the same HP as the previous years bike.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:14 AM   #1184
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Originally Posted by dsilver1007 View Post
Seemed to me when they went to qatar that year in 07 with the 800's the duc had top end on everyone???
All of the bikes were 30+ hp down on '06, and riding with tires built to handle the extra power. Top end is overrated. The Ducati is still probably the most powerful bike, and has been probably since they entered the series.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:04 AM   #1185
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You're lookin' for a noose around your neck saying things like that around here.
Meh. He is just grinding his axe. All I was saying is that Hayden matched up to Rossi quite well on the same bike. And, of course, he also excludes the one most important stat in the last 10 years that puts Hayden in an exclusive category. And one which makes him one of the very few who has toppled the GOAT.

Shall I compare Hayden to Stoner and see who's defense he comes to?
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