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Old 11-15-2012, 07:56 AM   #31
sniper1rfa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Look at the CBR250 compared to the decades old Rebel 250. My local Honda only dealer has new 2012 CBRs on sale for $3199, and 2012 Rebels on sale for $3699.
If that's true they're playing a numbers game with the CBR, since they have a virtually identical MSRP. And it's certainly not because the general public thinks the rebel is the better buy...


Quote:
The CBR is made in China and is poor quality.
Except that they're made in India and Thailand. Also, since I own one, I'm happy to report that I'm absolutely floored by the quality of the bike when considered alongside the price. I've worked in manufacturing my whole life, and I know good work when I see it. There is literally nothing to complain about with the CBR, aside from maybe a little rust on the exhaust tip.


Quote:
In case anyone hasn't noticed, the quality of pretty much everything has been dropping lately, regardless of price or brand.
I noticed that all the new bikes I've personally ridden recently have been excellent. So no, I haven't noticed that...

Ultimately when you see poor quality products it's generally Mr. Average Joe you should be complaining to. People sell what other people buy, and lots of people are perfectly happy buying junk shit. Poor quality products made in china are made badly because that's what the engineers asked for. The engineers asked for it because that's what people are willing to buy.

It's not like you can't get high quality stuff made in china - see the iPhone, for example.

sniper1rfa screwed with this post 11-15-2012 at 08:15 AM
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:07 AM   #32
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Who knew this thread would decent into yet another xenophobic rant about which country your bike is thrown together in as if it matters. The parts come from all over the place, all Thailand (not China, Thailand, as if it matters) does it put it together and export it.

And quality of products has been increasing vastly over the past few decades. I would challenge anyone to put a 10 year old Japanese built Rebel next to a CBR250R and walk away thinking the Rebel was higher quality. The CBR250R's build quality is off the charts, the only thing that lets it down is the quality of overall components (suspension, brakes, tires) which aren't even made in the country of manufacturer anyway?

Manufacturing is maturing at a very fast pace, motorcycles produced now are light years ahead of motorcycles produced during the last few decades, and to me anyone who reminisces about the "grand old days of build quality" of motorcycles either isn't paying attention, or is remembering a history with rose colored glasses which just doesn't exist.
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:22 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
...I'm happy to report that I'm absolutely floored by the quality of the bike when considered alongside the price. ....
+1

I love my little CBR. I've done the first service and have taken the plastics and tank off and put them back on. The quality is all there. It's very nicely made. Quality is a function of engineering and corporate culture, not the race or religion of the hands that assembled the parts.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:17 AM   #34
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Between the two bikes-not having owned or ridden either, I think the 300 Ninja might be a bit more fun (to me) in that one can wind out the engine a bit more and is lighter- that is if the revs on the Honda stop at 8500.

That said I am very interested in the new 500 Hondas and happy they made them. I think they could be the perfect commute/do it all bike with a bit more hp/torque than 250/300s and better gas mileage than the 650 bikes.

I do believe the rw hp numbers for the 500 bikes being in the 50s are not accurate. I think I read on the asphalt and rubber site the 500 engine has a compression ratio in the 10s, so I think Honda was aiming for rw hp in the 40s and rw tq in the 30s. Look at the 650 bikes from Kawasaki- all have rw hp in the high 50s or very low 60s with similar compression ratio and 150 more cc.

It's a great time to love bikes- very cool to see smaller displacement stuff being made and actually available in the U.S.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:46 AM   #35
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Just a data point:

I bought a Civic SI, in 2002. It was built in Swendon, England. It is as good or better in fit, finish, quality, performance, of any Honda I have had.


I also considered a Mini Cooper S in 02. Also built in England. Same country. They have the worst record of all of the above (although newer models have improved, and I am tempted because I love small mechanical objects) it too is built in England.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:15 PM   #36
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does anyone know what the cbr500 mpg rating is?

mattness screwed with this post 11-15-2012 at 02:47 PM
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:41 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabloADV View Post
+1

I love my little CBR. I've done the first service and have taken the plastics and tank off and put them back on. The quality is all there. It's very nicely made. Quality is a function of engineering and corporate culture, not the race or religion of the hands that assembled the parts.
Was that first service checking the valves or changing the oil or? How did that go, any issues or problems?
Thanks, Tony
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:43 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by TonyKZ1 View Post
Was that first service checking the valves or changing the oil or? How did that go, any issues or problems?
Thanks, Tony
Both...valves needed no adjusting. New filter and oil and did a once-over to check for loose fasteners (found none).

I've got about 1300 miles on it now. Have done a few 150-200 mile mini-tours around the Bay Area. Napa Valley, delta backroads...love this bike.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:44 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by single View Post
Who knew this thread would decent into yet another xenophobic rant about which country your bike is thrown together in as if it matters. The parts come from all over the place, all Thailand (not China, Thailand, as if it matters) does it put it together and export it.

And quality of products has been increasing vastly over the past few decades. I would challenge anyone to put a 10 year old Japanese built Rebel next to a CBR250R and walk away thinking the Rebel was higher quality. The CBR250R's build quality is off the charts, the only thing that lets it down is the quality of overall components (suspension, brakes, tires) which aren't even made in the country of manufacturer anyway?

Manufacturing is maturing at a very fast pace, motorcycles produced now are light years ahead of motorcycles produced during the last few decades, and to me anyone who reminisces about the "grand old days of build quality" of motorcycles either isn't paying attention, or is remembering a history with rose colored glasses which just doesn't exist.
I would say the overall spec of those parts, not the quality. They are not poorly built, they are just low spec.
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Old 11-16-2012, 04:15 AM   #40
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Someone mentioned the Deming philosophy of building motor vehicles. That was NOT a good thing. Continued unnecessary technological changes (done under the guise of "improvements" that don't work any better than the way it was done before) only makes vehicles become obsolete faster, and lose their resale value. It also makes it impossible to get parts for older vehicles because of the constant changes. 10 years is the average expected life of a vehicle these days. You had better get as many miles on it as possible during that time, it will not be possible (or worthwhile) to keep it going much longer due to the unavailability or absurd price of parts. Before Edward Deming came along, things were working just fine, with one exception. Quality was not there. Technology DOES NOT equal quality. I have a 40 year old car and a 50 year old car, both American, both built before the Deming era. I can still get any part I want for them. I can keep them going forever. They worked good when they were new, and they still work good today. And they do it without "new technology" These same designs, built with high quality, would last practically forever. Old American and British cars and bikes can be rebuilt forever. Parts are still available for most of them. You can build a '60s British or Harley engine almost completely from aftermarket parts. Try doing that with ANY Asian vehicle, or any late model vehicle of any brand since everybody started following Mr. Demings methods. All they did was lead to disposable vehicles. Oh, and they also raised the cost of those vehicles, and the cost of repairing them, because of all the additional but unnecessary technology they have.

There is absolutely NO reason that either a car or a motorcycle could not be built to last 100 years, except for accidents. In fact there are 100 year old cars still running. 50 years is considered fairly new for an aircraft. The first V35 Bonanza was built in 1947, and still looks modern today. It is an easy plane for a new pilot to fly. Over 90% of all those ever built are still airworthy and still being flown. Enough of this throwaway culture.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:15 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Someone mentioned the Deming philosophy of building motor vehicles. That was NOT a good thing. Continued unnecessary technological changes (done under the guise of "improvements" that don't work any better than the way it was done before) only makes vehicles become obsolete faster, and lose their resale value. It also makes it impossible to get parts for older vehicles because of the constant changes. 10 years is the average expected life of a vehicle these days. You had better get as many miles on it as possible during that time, it will not be possible (or worthwhile) to keep it going much longer due to the unavailability or absurd price of parts. Before Edward Deming came along, things were working just fine, with one exception. Quality was not there. Technology DOES NOT equal quality. I have a 40 year old car and a 50 year old car, both American, both built before the Deming era. I can still get any part I want for them. I can keep them going forever. They worked good when they were new, and they still work good today. And they do it without "new technology" These same designs, built with high quality, would last practically forever. Old American and British cars and bikes can be rebuilt forever. Parts are still available for most of them. You can build a '60s British or Harley engine almost completely from aftermarket parts. Try doing that with ANY Asian vehicle, or any late model vehicle of any brand since everybody started following Mr. Demings methods. All they did was lead to disposable vehicles. Oh, and they also raised the cost of those vehicles, and the cost of repairing them, because of all the additional but unnecessary technology they have.

There is absolutely NO reason that either a car or a motorcycle could not be built to last 100 years, except for accidents. In fact there are 100 year old cars still running. 50 years is considered fairly new for an aircraft. The first V35 Bonanza was built in 1947, and still looks modern today. It is an easy plane for a new pilot to fly. Over 90% of all those ever built are still airworthy and still being flown. Enough of this throwaway culture.
Bullshit.

I do agree to a certain extent; cars and motorbikes really can be build with a lot more of the durability factor in them though you are making things bigger than they really are. 10 years is not the average lifetime of a car. Cars last about 20-25 years in Holland and that's with a really salty and wet climate, and your average owner here just doesn't really take care of his or her car after it's something like 15 years old.

My cars and motorbikes will last a long time.

A modern sensible car will have much lower running costs compared to your 40 year old decent quality american cars. Cars actually last a lot of miles nowadays, are a lot more fuel efficient (Which is the biggest expense when looking at 2nd hand cars, 2nd biggest expense when looking at new cars due to depreciation) and a lot cheaper on maintenance (longer service intervals and less repairs).

There are a few manufactures I wouldn't buy a car or a motorbike from. I'd stay away from the so called premium cars loaded with electronic bull crap but even they are pretty relieable.

And at the end of the day; running costs are what's important when looking at a vehicle to transport you and your stuff.

British cars and motorbikes good? Please enlighten me. I love the oldskool bikes but they've been for a lot famous; except reliability and durability.

Your typical airlines and ship also does not last 50 years. They can last that long if you want but at some point maintenance costs will be higher than the depreciation of a new car ship or airplane. That's when you should replace nem (I agree that a lot of people do not do this. I'm riding on my 1st motorbike but I don't think I will only ride on this one for 30 years).
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:16 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Someone mentioned the Deming philosophy of building motor vehicles. That was NOT a good thing. Continued unnecessary technological changes (done under the guise of "improvements" that don't work any better than the way it was done before) only makes vehicles become obsolete faster, and blah blah blah blah blah








You've got to be joking.


I don't even know how to respond, other than to say you're so far off base it's ridiculous. Get a job as a manufacturing engineer, then we'll talk about your absurd rant. Sure, some stuff is stupid, and there are incompetents, but on the whole I think you'll find the automotive sector to be full of the best and brightest and you'll realize that modern cars are some of the highest-quality products you can currently purchase for any price, let alone a measly $14k like a Fit, or $4k for a CBR or ninja 250 or whatever.

If you want to see hugely inflated costs and unnecessary technology try the consumables section of the medical isle. Especially surgical consumables, simple implantables, and other "high-tech" but simple products. I used to make those, and the current healthcare climate in the US drives costs through the f'ing roof.

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Old 11-16-2012, 10:45 AM   #43
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That's a good looking bike, more interesting than the 700x, looks somehow so well proportioned for a solo rider. I bet there are going to be people turning in 80mpg US, saying you must not be riding it right if you only get 48. I would like to see screw type valve adjusters if it only turns 8.5K rpm.

The ninja 300 looks more fun to me for around town and in the mountains. I like making the little motor scream for all it's worth, rowing the gears, just something about being right on the edge. The cbr250 is an amazing commuter which you can't really beat for the price. Kind of doubt the 500 will cruise happily at 85, but it probably feels pretty good at 75mph which is about the top for the 250. Then again the 300 sounds like it will cruise at 75 just fine.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by mattness View Post
does anyone know what the cbr500 mpg rating is?
Honda are claiming 76mpg, imperial.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:17 PM   #45
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Honda are claiming 76mpg, imperial.
divide by 4.55, multiply by 3.8... 63.5 miles per 'merican gallon
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