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Old 11-20-2012, 02:38 PM   #76
EetsOK
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OK thanks, now I have to add Norway on list of places to ride. This is gonna cost me.....

Here's the machine needed (minus the tiny 2 gallon tank):
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:47 PM   #77
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I work for a city fleet services department, so I don't sell anything. The '60s, '70s, and '80s small block Chevy is my favorite car engine. They only had 2 weaknesses. One was in the rocker arm design, which caused them to throw a pushrod throug the valve cover once in a while. That was fixed by redesign a long time ago. The other problem was the cam drive, and that never got fixed by GM. The aftermarket came up with gear drives which fit under the stock timing cover with no modification, and seem to work very well. I have a lot of use on one with no problems, and being the mechanical type, I love the noise. Your other option for long life from one of these motors is to replace the timing chain at regular intervals, which is not difficult depending on how much room, you have to work in.

While I work on all American vehicles, up to 2012, plus large trucks, construction equipment, graders, backhoes, etc. down to push mowers and weed whackers, I do not work on foreign vehicles. My employer is not allowed to buy them. The city council mandated that we buy only American vehicles. And as for personal vehicles, the only non American cars I have any interest in are the air cooled VWs. I did own a Suzuki Samurai for a few years, never had any problems with it, I finally wore it out at over 200,000 miles, and sold it to a guy that was going to put a V6 in it.

Technology actually has very little to do with how long something lasts, and in some cases makes it fall apart faster. Quality is what it is all about. Part of the problem with American engines was a lack of build quality. If you want to start with an aftermarket Chevy block (I like Dart) and hand build the engine from the block up using only high quality aftermarket parts, Get it perfectly balanced, and every clearance spot on (not just within "tolerances") and properly maintain it, that engine will last a million miles in normal service.


The same thing applies to Harley engines, which use the same basic technology as older American V8s, other than liquid cooling. If they are built RIGHT, out of high quality parts, they will last a long time. Harley engines do have one design issue you don't have to deal with in American V8s, and it is part of their basic design. They have a single crankpin and a 45 degree cylinder layout. So there is no way you can properly balance one. Harley engines use a considerable amount of the power they make trying to tear themselves apart. You could easily fix that problem by using offset crankpins, but then it wouldn't be a Harley anymore. It wouldn't have that Harley sound and feel that is their main selling point. So all you can do is build them as well as possible, then rebuild them every so often. At least Harley engines, like older American V8s are designed to be easily rebuilt without replacing most of the engine, and parts will be available forever.

The new Twin Cam IS a better engine, other than, well, the twin cams. Harley made a huge number of improvements to this engine and transmission, it is way stronger than an EVO. But then they go and put that chain driven cam drive in it, which cancels out all the other improvements they made. Had they done everything else except using twin cams, they would have one of the most reliable and long lasting motorcycle engines ever made. And I still see no reason for twin cams. Even the newest American V8s still only have one cam, and look at the power they get out of them. Look at the new Corvette, Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger. By far the most powerful American V8s ever made, and the most reliable. And yet their basic design still uses ancient technology.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:19 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post

The same thing applies to Harley engines, which use the same basic technology as older American V8s, other than liquid cooling. If they are built RIGHT, out of high quality parts, they will last a long time. .
Yes, almost exactly the same. Except for the aforementioned liquid cooling, 45 degree V, and single crankpin with forked con rod.

And roller bearings instead of plain bearings.

And roller hydraulic lifters instead of flat bottom hydraulic tappets.

And a crank driven trochoid oil pump instead of a distributor driven gear oil pump.

And a splittable case with removable cylinders, instead of a cast block with integral cylinders.

And I could go on...



A Harley-Davidson V-Twin has more in common with a radial engine than it does a small block Chevy. They are only compared to small block Chevys in their proximate redlines, power curves, and significant increases in power with bolt on performance parts, which in both cases works so well only because both engines were historically choked in stock form from the factory.

No offense intended, but many of your posts are not mechanically accurate.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:54 PM   #79
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Roller lifters are available for all American V8s, and have been stock for a long time. I mentioned the single crankpin 45 degree layout as being different, and one of the reasons Harley engines did not last as long. I mentioned the liquid cooling. The roller bearings vs plain bearings, the way the oil pump is driven, and the splittable cases are minor differences that do not affect the overall design. Yamaha's Roadstar uses plain bearings. Plain bearings require higher oil pressure. I would think that the Harley engine being a dry sump design, which I forgot to mention, would be considered a much bigger difference than bearings or oil pump. As for the cases, an air cooled VW has splittable cases, and horizontal cylinders, and is air cooled. Maybe it is more closely related to the Harley engine, other than it is fan cooled, and can be balanced. When you get right down to it, the Harley engine is unique. But it does share many things in common with other types of engines. I picked the SBC because I am so familiar with it. I still don't see why the Harley engine needs two cams, which was my main point. The EVO only had one cam, and all the EVO clones still being made only have one cam, and they run just fine. Most of the other changes Harley made improved the durability of the engine, EXCEPT the twin cams, and I can't figure out what they did.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:40 PM   #80
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It's official.

You're hopeless.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:54 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
....The new Twin Cam IS a better engine, other than, well, the twin cams. Harley made a huge number of improvements to this engine and transmission, it is way stronger than an EVO. But then they go and put that chain driven cam drive in it, which cancels out all the other improvements they made. Had they done everything else except using twin cams, they would have one of the most reliable and long lasting motorcycle engines ever made. And I still see no reason for twin cams. Even the newest American V8s still only have one cam, and look at the power they get out of them. Look at the new Corvette, Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger. By far the most powerful American V8s ever made, and the most reliable. And yet their basic design still uses ancient technology.
Cam drive is one of its biggest issues.
There is nothign wrong with push rods as you noted. But as I said, the S&S X Wedge is the American V twin done right.

Push rods: still used in top fuel dragsters, the fastest accelrating race vehicle in the world, to this day.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:48 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by EetsOK View Post
Sport rubber (17 inchers) on sporty suspensions is going to out corner a stock Sportster. I've ridden many MANY Norton Commandos that corner very well too but they still won't compete with 17 inch rubber and modern suspension and frames. The GS is NOT a good comparison. When you can hang with even a Triumph Sprint RS, let me know.
it is not a slam against you or your bike eithr. Just pointing out a mix of 19 inch and 16 inche tires with 1950's suspension becasue that is what it is, just like new Triumph Bonnie's) is going to be outclassed by modern stuff.

BTW I live in BC, it's all mountain passes and corners for me too. ;)
I believe the official/unofficial speed record on the Dragon was set by a rider on a GS.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:48 PM   #83
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It's official.

You're hopeless.
Is this the same guy that was spouting off about 90 degree drive angles over in the Motus thread?
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:03 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Av8rPaul View Post
I believe the official/unofficial speed record on the Dragon was set by a rider on a GS.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:44 AM   #85
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Quote:
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I believe the official/unofficial speed record on the Dragon was set by a rider on a GS.
If he can beat that dude on the yellow GoldWing I want to see it!
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:54 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Technology actually has very little to do with how long something lasts, and in some cases makes it fall apart faster. Quality is what it is all about. Part of the problem with American engines was a lack of build quality. If you want to start with an aftermarket Chevy block (I like Dart) and hand build the engine from the block up using only high quality aftermarket parts, Get it perfectly balanced, and every clearance spot on (not just within "tolerances") and properly maintain it, that engine will last a million miles in normal service.


And I still see no reason for twin cams.
I don't see any reason for TCs either. Gear-driven quad-cams put out a much higher specific output.

Quality is what it's about. The heat-treating used, the spread of the tolerances. Everything has tolerances. It has to. Absolutes only exist in arithmetic, not in measurement. If something measures 1.0" in diameter, is that a guarantee it is going to measure 1.00"? How about 1.0000"? Or 1.00000"?

For being a mechanic, you are woefully ignorant about the way the machines you work on are made.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:15 AM   #87
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If something measures 1.0" in diameter, is that a guarantee it is going to measure 1.00"? How about 1.0000"? Or 1.00000"?
What he is referring to is automotive tolerances..which compared to machine shop tolerances..are measured with a yard stick.
A engine can be built within tolerance, and be darn near worn out from the jump.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:29 AM   #88
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And this is why shovelheads are the best, most reliable motors in the world!















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Old 11-21-2012, 07:37 AM   #89
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Is this the same guy that was spouting off about 90 degree drive angles over in the Motus thread?
Same guy that was run off the XT225 forum.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:16 AM   #90
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Same guy that was run off the XT225 forum.
And Moped Army, though I don't think it stuck.

BTW, I love my '01 FXDXT... cam chains and all.
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