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Old 11-21-2012, 10:41 AM   #91
JerryH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnone View Post
Same guy that was run off the XT225 forum.

Still on XT225 forum, still on Moped Army, don't care anything about the Motus except that I think it is a seriously overpriced piece of junk. A lot of hype, haven't heard from any owners, IF there actually are any owners.

Power is not part of the Harley formula. People buy Harleys for the look, sound, and feel, and yeah, the name. Single cam would and has worked just fine.

Most engines have a pretty wide "tolerance" for clearances. There are both manufacturing limits for a new engine, and service limits for using when rebuilding an engine. On the assembly line, if it is just barely within those tolerances, it is considered ok. But you can get a lot longer life, and more power out of an engine by using optimum clearances, and making sure all the clearances are the same. A V8 has 8 con rod big end bearings. Rather than just getting them "within tolerances", they need to be the right clearance, and they need to be all the same. Same thing with all other clearances in an engine. con rods and pistons need to be all the same weight. EXACT same weight, not just close. Piston to cylinder wall clearances also need to be exactly the same. That is the proper way to build an engine. Just because it will run without things being that close doesn't mean it will last as long or perform as well. Yes, this is a time consuming painstaking process, but it definitely pays off big time.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:26 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZbiker View Post
I don't see any reason for TCs either. Gear-driven quad-cams put out a much higher specific output.

Quality is what it's about. The heat-treating used, the spread of the tolerances. Everything has tolerances. It has to. Absolutes only exist in arithmetic, not in measurement. If something measures 1.0" in diameter, is that a guarantee it is going to measure 1.00"? How about 1.0000"? Or 1.00000"?

For being a mechanic, you are woefully ignorant about the way the machines you work on are made.
Sportsters ahve never been know to have cam drive issues.
Whether it is Evo's with cam bearing issues or TC's with cam drive issues, why did HD NOT use the proven XL 4 cam set up? They were changing the single cam design parameter anyways, so why not use what works? I don't get it.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:50 AM   #93
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The twin-cam's well-known (if perhaps overblown) issue with cam chain tensioner pads is a great excuse to install gear-drive cams. At least, I used it as one.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:28 PM   #94
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As long as the thread has become *ahem* "far-ranging":

I'm working on a 2000 Softail with 16k miles (left in an actual barn with cows for years until it froze up - it's running nicely now). Isn't there a cam bearing issue with these early TCs as well? Can it be easily inspected? Can it be repaired if there's a problem without a bunch of special tools?
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:03 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HapHazard View Post
As long as the thread has become *ahem* "far-ranging":

I'm working on a 2000 Softail with 16k miles (left in an actual barn with cows for years until it froze up - it's running nicely now). Isn't there a cam bearing issue with these early TCs as well? Yes but it's overblown like everything else about H-D Can it be easily inspected? No Can it be repaired if there's a problem without a bunch of special tools? No yet again.
Had to type this so I could post the above answers.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:21 PM   #96
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Here is everything you need to know to work on the cam drive. Notice how easily it all comes apart, so you can easily replace the chains every so often before they break or jump teeth. The cheesy plastic tensiones would appear to be the weakest link in the system. If that breaks, the cam chains will get very loose and do some serious damage. Fortunately Harley DID make the chains easy to get to, on most Japanese motors, the entire motor has to be disassembled and the cases split to replace the cam chain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5KvamRqCis
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:47 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Here is everything you need to know to work on the cam drive.....
I'd be more concerned with the problems resulting in the crank halves getting out of phase. Pressed together fly wheels don't inspire a whole lot of confidence in me. The mfg process must work, but it sure looks cheesy on the vid. Does the XL/XR motor have a built up crank, keyed and bolted as in the older models, or is it a pressed assembly (time is money, any monkey can fit the parts, etc.)?



http://youtu.be/1OnDoqAh3MY

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Old 11-21-2012, 04:15 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HapHazard View Post
As long as the thread has become *ahem* "far-ranging":

I'm working on a 2000 Softail with 16k miles (left in an actual barn with cows for years until it froze up - it's running nicely now). Isn't there a cam bearing issue with these early TCs as well? Can it be easily inspected? Can it be repaired if there's a problem without a bunch of special tools?
The '99 and early '00 model Twin Cams had a ball bearing in the cam plate for the rear cam. My understanding is that the problem was the ball bearing failing due to the side loading of the chain cam drive system. HD changed the ball bearing to a roller bearing and the problem was solved. In the video link posted by JerryH, the cam plate is the (I believe) '07 and later design that uses parent-bearing material instead of outer cam bearings. That may be confusing.

Additionally, when the tech checked the crank the runout was 0.007" and that was acceptable. The bike in the video had 1,800 miles. For comparison, when I put gear driven cams in my '05, the runout was 0.003" and I had 31,000 miles on it. The service manual for my '05 says 0.003" is the acceptable limit. The service manual for my '12 says 0.012" is the acceptable limit. Interesting that the runout spec has changed on the newer bikes.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:35 PM   #99
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Wow, didn't read the entire thread, but lots of opinions and hearsay.
Harley went to twin cam chain design to reduce manufacturing costs. Easier to put a chain and tensioner than to precision fit gears. Harley used to make many size gears and spend the time fitting them to get proper clearance.
How many here have ever replaced tensioners? We replaced mine at 52,000 miles. They were thin. Checked them at 70,000, looked like new.
As far as chains go, my neighbor has a Harley with enclosed drive chain, has like 130,000 miles on original chain and sprockets.
My RK has 73,000 miles, trouble free except for tensioners.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:39 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Still on XT225 forum, still on Moped Army, don't care anything about the Motus except that I think it is a seriously overpriced piece of junk. A lot of hype, haven't heard from any owners, IF there actually are any owners.

Power is not part of the Harley formula. People buy Harleys for the look, sound, and feel, and yeah, the name. Single cam would and has worked just fine.

Most engines have a pretty wide "tolerance" for clearances. There are both manufacturing limits for a new engine, and service limits for using when rebuilding an engine. On the assembly line, if it is just barely within those tolerances, it is considered ok. But you can get a lot longer life, and more power out of an engine by using optimum clearances, and making sure all the clearances are the same. A V8 has 8 con rod big end bearings. Rather than just getting them "within tolerances", they need to be the right clearance, and they need to be all the same. Same thing with all other clearances in an engine. con rods and pistons need to be all the same weight. EXACT same weight, not just close. Piston to cylinder wall clearances also need to be exactly the same. That is the proper way to build an engine. Just because it will run without things being that close doesn't mean it will last as long or perform as well. Yes, this is a time consuming painstaking process, but it definitely pays off big time.
So the parts need to be "within tolerances" but just TIGHTER tolerances.

"Exact" does not exist. "Exact" is only as exact as the scale you are using to measure mass. Still is a tolerance.

If your scale measures to the nearest .1g, how are you going to know if the part is .01g heavy or light? You won't.

Not exact, within tolerance.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:40 PM   #101
AZbiker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EetsOK View Post
Sportsters ahve never been know to have cam drive issues.
Whether it is Evo's with cam bearing issues or TC's with cam drive issues, why did HD NOT use the proven XL 4 cam set up? They were changing the single cam design parameter anyways, so why not use what works? I don't get it.
Me either. Maybe people think parallel pushrods, and their attendant superior geometry, are ugly?
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:52 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EetsOK View Post
why did HD NOT use the proven XL 4 cam set up? They were changing the single cam design parameter anyways, so why not use what works? I don't get it.
probably epa pressure.
all those gears make more noise
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:59 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by JerryH View Post
Still on XT225 forum.
JerryH ,
I was on the XT225 forum when you got run off because of the crazy stuff you recommended like washing your hands in gasoline. You went off in a huff and formed your own XT225 group on Yahoo and maybe you had two members. Maybe you are back now, I don't know since I sold my XT225 and left the forum.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:14 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by nskitts View Post
If he can beat that dude on the yellow GoldWing I want to see it!
While the dude on the yellow Gold Wing was a great rider and was damn fast through the dragon on a GOLD WING, while riding a Gold Wing he was not damn fast through the dragon in general. When he was a videographer for hire (that's what he did with the Wing - he had cameras all over it and would film people for a fee) I asked him about his ability to keep up with people on sport bikes. He was quite confident it wouldn't be an issue, and told me to follow him while he shot video of some folks who had just hired him.

I followed him for about half of the run to the other end, got frustrated, passed them all and left them. When we all met up at the overlook he told me the folks he was taking video of were the reason the run was so slow, and he told me to follow him back through the dragon to see what he could really do. Again I followed him for about 1/3 of the 11 miles, passed him, and never looked back. When I saw him later at the gas station he started lecturing about how the objective isn't to run away from the camera. I reminded him I hadn't hired him and he wasn't taking video of me, the point was he said he would be able to keep up, but couldn't.

I rode the '08 Gold Wing I used to own through the dragon several times. Certainly "Yellow Wolf" - as he was known - has skills, but as luxo-barges go the Gold Wing is relatively easy to ride fast.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:36 PM   #105
JerryH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnone View Post
JerryH ,
I was on the XT225 forum when you got run off because of the crazy stuff you recommended like washing your hands in gasoline. You went off in a huff and formed your own XT225 group on Yahoo and maybe you had two members. Maybe you are back now, I don't know since I sold my XT225 and left the forum.
Just what is wrong with washing your hands in gasoline? I am 53 and have been doing that since age 8. If you are worried about your smooth soft skin, I wouldn't recommend it. I have also been using gasoline as a parts cleaner all my life. It may be expensive as a fuel, but it is the cheapest and most effective cleaner available for removing grease.

I never got "run off" I got fed up with one particular member in particular (you know who I mean) who claimed to know everything but from his posts almost certainly never worked on anything mechanical. I finally decided to just ignore him.
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