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Old 12-10-2012, 11:20 AM   #31
jdrocks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymac530 View Post
JD, you commented on "only" 5-6% increrase in diameter, do you want a 5-6% decrease in pay? That is substantially more than you think it is.
hardly, 5-6% is exactly what i think it is. the calculated inflated tire diameters are only slightly less than Woody posted, so let's round it up to 6%, of itself not an impressive difference. especially since the cross section variance is a multiple of that number.

woody is correct in pointing out that there are a number of factors involved, including the unsprung weight of the wheel assembly, something i hadn't considered.

i've run plenty of miles off paved surfaces on 17, 19, and 21", so i do know a least a little about how these sizes perform in different conditions.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:39 AM   #32
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Here is some sand car tires for sale, again note the narrow design and fin like rudder to penetrate the sand and steer, not big ballon tires to float like you might find on the rear.

http://www.sandparts.com/servlet/the...res/Categories

Here are some quad sand tires

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KENDA-DUNE-R...8afa70&vxp=mtr

Here is a pure sand tire for a dirt bike

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com...WT.MC_ID=10010

Here is what I think you need though. It is a 19" Harley Narrowglide front wheel with Aluminum hub and I believe an aluminum rim as well

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com...WT.MC_ID=10010
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:55 AM   #33
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JD,
I honestly do not mean to sound argumentative and I honestly think we are saying some of the same things just looking at them from opposite sides kind of thing.

Are you saying that in the OP original question that a 19" tire is "better" in sand?

That goes against what Woody, Jimmy Lewis, all conventional race bikes heavy or light, and most posters here are saying.

I am very much in agreement with you if you are saying that BP "should" run a 19" on his bike for his intended uses. But NOT in agreement if the arguement is that a fatter 19" is just as good or better in soft dirt applications which is all that the OP question was.

Feels like we have 2 different threads sort of.
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:01 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by kellymac530 View Post
Here is some sand car tires for sale, again note the narrow design and fin like rudder to penetrate the sand and steer, not big ballon tires to float like you might find on the rear.

http://www.sandparts.com/servlet/the...res/Categories

Here are some quad sand tires

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KENDA-DUNE-R...8afa70&vxp=mtr

Here is a pure sand tire for a dirt bike

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com...WT.MC_ID=10010

Here is what I think you need though. It is a 19" Harley Narrowglide front wheel with Aluminum hub and I believe an aluminum rim as well

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com...WT.MC_ID=10010
Thank you for these links.

The last two however are the same link, for the pure sand tire for a dirt bike. Would you be kind enough to post the link for the 19" Harley narrowglide front wheel?
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:04 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by kellymac530 View Post
JD,
I honestly do not mean to sound argumentative and I honestly think we are saying some of the same things just looking at them from opposite sides kind of thing.

Are you saying that in the OP original question that a 19" tire is "better" in sand?

That goes against what Woody, Jimmy Lewis, all conventional race bikes heavy or light, and most posters here are saying.

I am very much in agreement with you if you are saying that BP "should" run a 19" on his bike for his intended uses. But NOT in agreement if the arguement is that a fatter 19" is just as good or better in soft dirt applications which is all that the OP question was.

Feels like we have 2 different threads sort of.
Yeah you've been pretty confused and argumentative the whole time. Relax man, he ain't racing it and he ain't Johnny Campbell or Jimmy Lewis. Its an Adventure Touring bike based off of a Harley Sportster for Christ's sakes. Recommendations have all been for the OP with his particular application. Examples cited were done to prove that they have worked well in the past. Sometimes even someone like you could learn from the past.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:13 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by kellymac530 View Post

Are you saying that in the OP original question that a 19" tire is "better" in sand?

no.

what i said was the 21 works better because of the smaller cross section width, and not the relatively small difference in inflated diameter compared to the 19.

woody pointed out that he can build a 21 lighter than a 19, saving unsprung weight and allowing the suspension to work better, also a factor.

i average over 3000 miles/year on gravel and recommended the 19 for a combination of road surfaces, it's what i run. it hasn't been mentioned, but a 19" tire inflated to rated pressure is a wheel saver on rough roads.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:34 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Strong Bad View Post
Yeah you've been pretty confused and argumentative the whole time. Relax man, he ain't racing it and he ain't Johnny Campbell or Jimmy Lewis. Its an Adventure Touring bike based off of a Harley Sportster for Christ's sakes. Recommendations have all been for the OP with his particular application. Examples cited were done to prove that they have worked well in the past. Sometimes even someone like you could learn from the past.
No, not in anyway confused about the issue here. Strong Bad, your comment here is completely BS and off of the OP.
It does not matter if he is JC or JL or my 94 yr old grandma who has never ridden. There is NO time when a 110/80-19" front tire is "better" than a 90/90-21" in soft sand on any size or weight bike!

Here is the OP in quote:


pros & cons of a 21" front wheel vs. large 16" wheel/ tire
Conventional wisdom is dirt bikes have a 21" front wheel with small tire with a meatier rear tire, and large touring bikes have 16-18" wheels with meaty tires on both ends.

Why?

Wouldn't the meaty front tire float as well over dirt and mud as the 21" with smaller rubber? Does it, or is it a weight issue, or a side-loading issue on unstable terrain, or tradition, or something else altogether?

No where does boatpuller state his riding level, his type of bike, or any conditions you are refering too. He does not tell us it is a sportster enduro conversion until the 10th post in this thread.

No one ever wants to admit they are wrong when they clearly are wrong and this time Strong Bad, YOU are wrong. Simple as that. A 21" works better in soft conditions and rocky conditions as myself and many others have stated for MANY reasons.

Narrower cross section makes it cut through soft dirt and sand and steer more like a rudder. No matter bike weight, a lighter weight tire/wheel combo is better, as Woody has stated that is a 21" combo.

JD, you and I are saying the same thing. A narrower cross section like you stated works better because as I stated the cut the sand.

I also have MANY thousands of miles on asphalt race tracks, street riding, back roads, freeway and about the same amount of miles in the desert, MX tracks and and dirt I can find. I am at about 1 million miles NO LIE. 500,000 documanted street miles with odometer equiped bikes and that much again on dirt bikes doing everything from hare-n-hound, scrambles, Grand Prixs, MX racing, a SX series, and magazine testing for MX and Enduro bikes.....100s of thousands of laps ridden.

Strong Bad,
Look back at all of my posts, as soon as boat puller told us what he was building, I definately reccomended a 19" front wheel on a bike like that for his riding level, terrain, and skill level. You and I are in agreement on that and I have always made that assertation and even given him a like to a wheel that will bolt on to his sporty and give him a light weight, strong, laced option in a 19" wheel.

The "floatation" issue is not a valid issue that was raised in the OP, especially on a tire that is likely 20-60mm wider and smaller in diameter and circumference. Floatation would not come into effect until substantially wider and ballon style tires would come in to play like on a "Fat Cat". Then speed and street ability is gone. Even the issue on whether a bike should float on sand has been in question. You can not steer without a rudder even if your boat floats, you must have a rudder to have directional control....same on sand.

I love the back and forth discussions here. However when I am wrong I have admitted it and digressed. I am not wrong this time.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:07 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by kellymac530 View Post


Strong Bad,


The "floatation" issue is not a valid issue that was raised in the OP, especially on a tire that is likely 20-60mm wider and smaller in diameter and circumference. Floatation would not come into effect until substantially wider and ballon style tires would come in to play like on a "Fat Cat". Then speed and street ability is gone. Even the issue on whether a bike should float on sand has been in question. You can not steer without a rudder even if your boat floats, you must have a rudder to have directional control....same on sand.

I love the back and forth discussions here. However when I am wrong I have admitted it and digressed. I am not wrong this time.
110x18? Nope bigger fatter wider than that! I guess I wasn't the only guy who was wrong back in the day because it didn't work!Allow me to bring in a discussion over on the Dirt Bike History 101 thread after I complemented Deadmanridin on his choice of front wheel:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadmanRidin View Post
Right on the money Strong Bad! Dunlop K70 350x19 with a 325x17 Trials on the rear. Look at the size of that tire! Not only great for soft sand, But absolutely destroyed any pucker bushes if you happened off the trail. I still dig seen the orange 76 ball on the rim lock!
But then, I've never been there or done that nor have many others As my wife says: "You are welcome to your own wrong opinion!"
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:57 AM   #39
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I like you Strong Bad. You have a great stick to it-ness about you. Even when wrong yet many times again.

I rode a Hodaka as well. I rode fast. It was capable of being ridden fast. In 1971 I loved it. By 1981 it was antiquated.
By your logic we should all ditch our water cooled, reliable, 12" suspended, aluminum framed, high performance machines for a seizure prone, 6" suspended, noodle framed, heavy for its size, beast just because it was the bomb back in its day.

You have not addressed any of the other places you are wrong....when we found out what BP was building, what the orignal issue was....

You are also very wrong on you size comparisons. WAY wrong. I never said 110-18 as you state. I said, and I quote "110/80-19" " That would be the tire size that is common on many heavy weight dual purpose bikes today like a BMW GS/GSA or the Yamaha Super Tenere or a common size that might be used on a Sporty DS conversion.

You are also very wrong on your size comparison of the tires you show. WAY wrong. Modern tires are measured on the metric system. My 90/90-21" is 90mm wide at the widest point generally when aired up, it is 90mm tall in side profile when aired up and new. It fits on a 21" rim, Not a metric dimension but it is the standard.

The tires you show on the Hodaka and sizes you give are measured in U.S. inches. You forgot the decimal point in your post, but that is ok, you forget alot of things. The tire in question you show is actually 3.50x19" which equates to 3 and one half inches wide and gives no sidewall profile and fits a 19" rim. A metric conversion shows that 3.50 or 3-1/2" converts to a mere 88.9 mm. The tire on the front of my KTMs or YZs are 90mm wide a full 1.1mm wider that your Hodaka tire.

And a common ADV bike tire that as I stated would fit a GS or Tenere being a 110/80-19" would actually be 4.3333" almost a full inch wider than your Hodaka tire. Tell all of the people that have converted their big GS bikes from a 4.333" wide x 19" tire up to a narrower 90/90-21", like Jimmy Lewis AND his wife that the fatter smaller diameter tire is better....you can't.

If your argument is that you Hodaka tire was better because it was wider than a common 21" tire, you are wrong.

You are not the only person to have ridden those bikes. Maybe you are one of the few who are stuck in thos days and think progress has not improved bikes, but again you would be wrong.

I love the old and vintage stuff, but it is in NO way Better than modern stuff. Fun- YES. Historic-Yes. Iconic-Yes. Nostalgic-HUGE Yes.....better- NO WAY.

I will buy you a beer if we ever meet and have a laugh or two with you and not argue, but for now, Come ON man...ever watch MNF? Come on man.
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:59 PM   #40
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I like you Strong Bad. You have a great stick to it-ness about you. Even when wrong yet many times again.

I rode a Hodaka as well. I rode fast. It was capable of being ridden fast. In 1971 I loved it. By 1981 it was antiquated.
By your logic we should all ditch our water cooled, reliable, 12" suspended, aluminum framed, high performance machines for a seizure prone, 6" suspended, noodle framed, heavy for its size, beast just because it was the bomb back in its day.

You have not addressed any of the other places you are wrong....when we found out what BP was building, what the orignal issue was....

You are also very wrong on you size comparisons. WAY wrong. I never said 110-18 as you state. I said, and I quote "110/80-19" " That would be the tire size that is common on many heavy weight dual purpose bikes today like a BMW GS/GSA or the Yamaha Super Tenere or a common size that might be used on a Sporty DS conversion.

You are also very wrong on your size comparison of the tires you show. WAY wrong. Modern tires are measured on the metric system. My 90/90-21" is 90mm wide at the widest point generally when aired up, it is 90mm tall in side profile when aired up and new. It fits on a 21" rim, Not a metric dimension but it is the standard.

The tires you show on the Hodaka and sizes you give are measured in U.S. inches. You forgot the decimal point in your post, but that is ok, you forget alot of things. The tire in question you show is actually 3.50x19" which equates to 3 and one half inches wide and gives no sidewall profile and fits a 19" rim. A metric conversion shows that 3.50 or 3-1/2" converts to a mere 88.9 mm. The tire on the front of my KTMs or YZs are 90mm wide a full 1.1mm wider that your Hodaka tire.

And a common ADV bike tire that as I stated would fit a GS or Tenere being a 110/80-19" would actually be 4.3333" almost a full inch wider than your Hodaka tire. Tell all of the people that have converted their big GS bikes from a 4.333" wide x 19" tire up to a narrower 90/90-21", like Jimmy Lewis AND his wife that the fatter smaller diameter tire is better....you can't.

If your argument is that you Hodaka tire was better because it was wider than a common 21" tire, you are wrong.

You are not the only person to have ridden those bikes. Maybe you are one of the few who are stuck in thos days and think progress has not improved bikes, but again you would be wrong.

I love the old and vintage stuff, but it is in NO way Better than modern stuff. Fun- YES. Historic-Yes. Iconic-Yes. Nostalgic-HUGE Yes.....better- NO WAY.

I will buy you a beer if we ever meet and have a laugh or two with you and not argue, but for now, Come ON man...ever watch MNF? Come on man.
350......3.50 whatever.......we called them three-fifty and we used them because they worked PERIOD no matter what you called them or how they were measured. Those were not modern bikes with tons of HP or suspension. What works on my current race bike (Honda CRF 450) has nothing to do with the OP's scooter. A Harley Sportster is barely a modern bike with modern suspension. (let see you argue that)

Your mistake is you think you know my logic or what I think and as such are out smarting yourself. I'll take that beer and maybe even buy one for you, but only because you admit the OP needs the nice big fat 19"!
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:29 PM   #41
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Again SB, you are missing the point of the OP. The question was not about HIS bike, just what would work better in a certain condition.

I have always contended that a 19" front is the best multi use tire for a moderate dual sport bike.

As to BPs sportster I do not know exactly what he plans for his suspension. If he is doing anything like JTH sportster then a 21" is still the best option.

I am really curious though if you have ever tried a 19" tire on your CR450F for the desert?

I am not sure if you noticed the measurements, but that three fifty actually measures narrower than the 21" on your 450f. Maybe be an optical illusion though.

I just went out to MY garage and measured MY 1965 Yamaha Ym1 rear tire, which is a 3.50-18 and it measure exactly 3-1/2" and so does the more knobbie looking tire that came off of it. And yes I have ridden it in the dirt. I also measured my airhead R80G/S which has a 90/90-21 and it measures almost 3-3/4" wide although optically looks narrower that the smaller diameter on my old yami.

If this discussion was whether or not the taller sidewall was better in the dez for flats or pinches...different discussion.

PS: I love old and vintage things so none of this is because I think old is bad....my daily driver is a 1949 Studebaker truck with a V8 conversion....not a small block chevy like most but a 1963 Studebaker V8 conversion that I did myself. It still runs the stock 3 on the tree with OD and the stock 5.56 geared Timkem split center diff. No A/C. No PS. No PW....my current motorcycles are a '96 RT, an '86 G/S, an '83 Honda POS project and a 1965 Yami Ym1 305cc 2 stroke twin...I obviously love old and vintage.
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:43 PM   #42
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Here's my 2c worth(less)

Bio: 63 yrs. old, ridin' 49 yrs. Owned many types, styles etc. From '67 Big Bear to Tenere. Not all that many (serious) miles, just for fun and pleasure. Both sons ride (1-- all over the place, now on Tenere). I rode WABDR with him this summer on my DR650. Other son on DR and Seattle son on Tenere. Also have NX650 (21" front). I live in N. Mich., lots of gravel, sand (some deep). For MY riding "pleasure", I first noticed nice tractability on gravel at moderate speed seemed better on the TDM (that I recently purchased) and that urged me to try the Tenere. (btw: sold FJR - not practical for up here). I really ENJOY the Tenere's handling of gravel, washboard, eroded, some light sand and that it seems to be the ideal bike for my old (titanium hipped) ass. I surely do not have the experience of ya'll, but as an avid rider and fairly analytical of my riding, I can see where the argument for a chubby, 19" front may be the ticket for enjoyable handling in somewhat precarious riding environments. Your analyses are duly noted and I only wish I had done the riding that a lot of you were able to do. Different lives, times, demands. Just trying to help, BP.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:23 AM   #43
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Finally got to read some unread motorcycle magazines over the weekend, and found a very interesting editorial in the July issue of Motorcycle Consumer News (a bare-bones no advertising fairly technical motorcycle publication I really enjoy. The editorials tend to be very engineering oriented, and thought-provoking).

The topic was on gyroscopic effects of motorcycle wheels and tires. The biggest contributor to gyroscopic effects, mathematically, is diameter.

Could the benefit of a 21" wheel in the dirt be the increased stability provided by the gyroscopic affect of the larger wheel/tire at the slower speeds usually ridden off pavement, especially in conditions that tend to cause slippage or side-loading due to the rough or loose terrain?
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:05 PM   #44
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I believe that article to be true. No single factor makes something work or not work.
I do know that when Honda tried the 23" front back in the late 70s early 80s that was the issue, very HEAVY steering feel. An example of too much of a good thing. This I believe is also the reason why a street bike with a 21", like a DS bike has a heavier turn in feel and usually requires a bit more counter steer input to make it turn. Not that it handles much worse per say, just more steering input.

The diameter of a wheel also effects turn in I think effects it in more than one way. A wheel being round that is smaller in diameter will turn a tighter radius with the same input. That is just my feelings, no scienece behind it that I have, just my own experiences. If you drop a washer and it lands on its edge but leaning on an angle it will roll in a pretty small circle, if you MC wheel on its edge {tire} at about the same angle the circle it will roll is much larger. Add gyro effect and you have a genuine formula for how a bike might handle with a 17", 19", 21" front wheel.
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