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Old 12-17-2012, 09:26 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
You're well on your way to being European. Personally, I'm unwilling to have to subordinate my constitutional rights to what any current regime deems to be in the "public interest", which is what exists in most Euro nations. Your $50M concept fits right into this Socialist line of thought.

The Germans and many other Europeans are fascinated by the Wild West theme because it's an escape from the conformity that their society expects from them. They've traded their individualism for the security that a "nanny" state can provide.
.


You got us pegged. We're all drones that march to the beat of little father's drum.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:34 AM   #152
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He does, doesn't he?

I guess he forgot that in the wild west, people paid for liberty with their lives. Makes paying for some extra insurance not seem like such a bad bargain...

I'm not suggesting that you give up your "constitutional rights", I'm asking you to tell me how much they are worth to you.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:10 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Cos View Post


You got us pegged. We're all drones that march to the beat of little father's drum.
if youve never sold illegal drugs you probably wont understand this.the EASY RIDER movie was about personal freedom.and selling cocaine for a profit.everybody has to march in line if they want to fit into polite society.if you sell illegal drugs, ride a custom harley without a helmet you are.......an outlaw.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:40 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
He does, doesn't he?

I guess he forgot that in the wild west, people paid for liberty with their lives. Makes paying for some extra insurance not seem like such a bad bargain...

I'm not suggesting that you give up your "constitutional rights", I'm asking you to tell me how much they are worth to you.

please please stay in europe.i think you forget that many of my parents generation died in germany to protect our liberties. it makes me very sad that now so very many are willing to give them up so cheaply.
THANKS PHILB, a clear voice of reason.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:40 PM   #155
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IMO, all legislation in the USA is bought by the lobbies. The AMA is a powerful lobby that has helped move 47 states with mandatory helmet use in the '70s to only 20 states today. Now the insurance companies have a more powerful lobby than the AMA. Why have very few and none of the major health insurers come out for mandatory helmet use. Health insurance companies have the money and lobbyist to get mandatory helmet use passed. It is know that with helmet use there are fewer deaths, but not necessarily less bodily injury. Health insurers pay claims for injury, not DEATH. If your dead, it doesn't cost the health companies a penny.

I wear a helmet, ATGATT has saved my life, certainly from catastrophic injury this past year in a crash. However, if you want to ride in only a jock strap and ear muffs, have at it. No skin off my ass, maybe yours
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:57 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by bridwell52 View Post
Does this debate ever change.
Move along kiddies,nothing to see here.
I find that my helmets slide better if I coat them in synthetic oil.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:35 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
please please stay in europe.i think you forget that many of my parents generation died in germany to protect our liberties. it makes me very sad that now so very many are willing to give them up so cheaply.
I'm probably a bit closer to the war than you realize. I really, truly doubt that the people in my family who died in WWII were thinking about whether helmets should be required by law or not. They were more focused on the right to worship their deity of choice, in their chosen manner. A small difference.

Extremism (NO LAWS!! EVER!!!!) doesn't get us anywhere. Discussing the issue intelligently does. The data in the OP give some insight and will eventually fuel the actuarial studies that will put a price on riding helmetless. Once that data is in and validated, there won't be room for discussion any more. ie - now is the time to prepare your second-level defense strategy.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:29 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
Extremism (NO LAWS!! EVER!!!!) doesn't get us anywhere. Discussing the issue intelligently does. The data in the OP give some insight and will eventually fuel the actuarial studies that will put a price on riding helmetless. Once that data is in and validated, there won't be room for discussion any more. ie - now is the time to prepare your second-level defense strategy.
Does discussing the issue intelligently involve assuming actuarial studies that don't yet exist will validate your point of view over others? Does intelligent discussion also assume a study will somehow overcome different people's views on the degree to which they value personal freedom?

Even if we were to assume that helmetless riding costs society some amount of money, at what amount does it justify mandating an individual's choice? Intelligent, moral people can disagree on that and no study will ever prove them wrong because it is an issue of values, not science. Much like people choosing how or if they practice their religion, people can have different, valid views and how much government interference they find acceptable.

Some people find ANY government interference in their choices unacceptable while others want to use the government to enforce their views upon others. Most people probably fall into a million different positions along the spectrum between those views. Please explain how some actuarial study (that likely could never quantify a number anyway) will invalidate somebody's values.

I'm curious too if a number generated by a study would make you support an outright ban on motorcycling since I'm fairly certain it would be shown that riding motorcycles has a significant societal cost. Maybe you simply forgot to take into account the unquantifiable value of a societal benefit such as freedom of choice.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:54 AM   #159
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It seems wearing a helmet is equivilant to wearing a seatbelt, yet there is no ongoing debate over wearing seatbelts.

The "freedom & rights" argument is really weak considering all the "real freedoms" that we do not have in the US.

(Regardless of our political views, there are numerous things that most of us feel we should have the right to do. And then there's the unfairness of our taxation, and the unfairness of the government's spending & distribution of those funds...)

I guess there's the "Soap Box" forum (or wharever it's called here) for political debates....
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:58 AM   #160
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thanks butters,
again someone said it better than me. it's not about helmets, or guns, or the tsa, or search and seizure, it's about all of it. a chip here a chip there and soon the bill of rights will be meaningless.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:55 AM   #161
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It seems wearing a helmet is equivilant to wearing a seatbelt, yet there is no ongoing debate over wearing seatbelts.
Yes there is. It's just not in THIS thread. Seatbelt laws are for people who need Big Brother to babysit them so they can procreate and have even stupider kids...IMO. Whether or not to wear a seatbelt should be a CHOICE for an adult, much like whether or not to ride a motorcycle or drive a car with 96 airbags.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:55 AM   #162
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thanks butters,
again someone said it better than me. it's not about helmets, or guns, or the tsa, or search and seizure, it's about all of it. a chip here a chip there and soon the bill of rights will be meaningless.
Exactly.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:50 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
I'm probably a bit closer to the war than you realize. I really, truly doubt that the people in my family who died in WWII were thinking about whether helmets should be required by law or not. They were more focused on the right to worship their deity of choice, in their chosen manner. A small difference.

Extremism (NO LAWS!! EVER!!!!) doesn't get us anywhere. Discussing the issue intelligently does. The data in the OP give some insight and will eventually fuel the actuarial studies that will put a price on riding helmetless. Once that data is in and validated, there won't be room for discussion any more. ie - now is the time to prepare your second-level defense strategy.
WISCONSIN repealed its helmet law in 1977.it wasnt so much about debate as IN YOURE FACE.weekend protests at the state capitol in MADISON,WISCONSIN.guys and gals riding around the state capitol lidless until the legislators caved in.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:18 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by aeneas View Post
So they took away my liberty to wear flipflops whilst riding.. At least I don't need to pay more taxes / medical insurance to pay for people that were stupid enough not to wear protection and broke their ankles. Or who crashed without a helmet and are in coma for months or years.
<-- THIS is the essential justification for helmet laws, seatbelt laws, requiring airbags in cars, OSHA regulations, etc. The idea is that by reducing individual risk of injury, we save society from footing the bill for the injury when it happens. Yes, there is private insurance in the US, but like any insurance, the rates we pay are directly linked to the amount of money the companies pay out to cover claims as well as their estimate of your individual risk factors. In theory, therefore, helmet laws are responsible for lower insurance premiums.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:46 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
Yes there is. It's just not in THIS thread. Seatbelt laws are for people who need Big Brother to babysit them so they can procreate and have even stupider kids...IMO. Whether or not to wear a seatbelt should be a CHOICE for an adult, much like whether or not to ride a motorcycle or drive a car with 96 airbags.

I meant an ongoing "political" debate. There aren't any states which do not require seatbelts, are there?

Maybe the stupid people thing would work...If you fail the IQ test you don't have to wear a helment, or would it go the other way? Maybe the IQ test would be good for dealing with other legal & social issues too. But I guess we shouldn't go down that path....., or we might end up seeing the "Mensa Sperm Bank"!

Anyway, we all have the "right" to be as stupid as we choose. Because we're Americans!

( Personally, I try to avoid riding motorcycles & operating heavy equipment on the days when I'm feeling especially stupid. Come to think of it....I don't usually end up getting laid on those days either! Hmm? )
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